Outer Gates and cup of coffee.

[b4utoo]

So the Outer Gates in Deep Fairy. But Fairy borders the mortal world. The never-never encompasses everything else outside Mortal World. Which includes fairy. So The Outsiders can go to the Never Never. But fairy guards The Outsiders from the mortal world. So it's looking like a round ball with fairy surrounding and then a wall then never never? But..Or...

Or is there a whole in reality in deep fairy between the never never and fairy that the wall blocks. And must have a gate for balance. That they always protect. Grab cup of coffee discuss?

[morriswalters]

The Gates may just be the point where the two realities touch. Consider two spheres with two points tangent to the surface of the two spheres.  No matter the size of the spheres there is only one place that those two points can touch each other.

[b4utoo]

What about the huge wall

[The_Sibelis]

After some consideration and looking at the various mental battle's in the books, especially Molly vs corpse taker, I think it's basically a metaphorical beachfront of a mental attack on guardians of reality, the genus loci broken down into various incarnations is what quantifies the immune system the fairies are wojed to be part of. If we think of Gaia as the mothers, and the queens their direct champions, their focused will distilled into a smaller vessel capable of going inside the battle itself, it works out? The gates are the continued battle, and things like Nemesis are beings that have found specific cracks in the mental makeup of reality. Fairy is closest to reality because it's been given a certain status by the holders of reality. Doesn't mean they can't travel to, and hold specific dominance at the battlefield itself. Note though, none of their primary powers are based anywhere near it, they hold The Gates as a place of power unto itself.

[b4utoo]

Huh?

[morriswalters]

What about the huge wall

If you want a pop psychology version the eye sees what the mind expects to see.  In the story the fighters are moving back and forth through the gates and Rashid is checking them out as they come back. They only pass back and forth through the Gates never over the wall. The Gates are the McGuffin of the book.  They can be anything the story needs them to be.

[b4utoo]

That was very unsightful. Kind of regurgitate book in a different way.
So basically you just saying it's whatever we want to see it is. Try giving it a little more thought and come back

[Mira]

If you want a pop psychology version the eye sees what the mind expects to see.  In the story the fighters are moving back and forth through the gates and Rashid is checking them out as they come back. They only pass back and forth through the Gates never over the wall. The Gates are the McGuffin of the book.  They can be anything the story needs them to be.

Yes, but more to the point, while they are talked of quite a lot in the series, we only visit them one time.  The trip to them isn't an easy one, usually "young" wizards such as Harry never are brought to see them, and when he went he had to be guided by Mother Summer with concurrence from Mother Winter.  I don't think it was all an illusion,  he traveled there, he witnessed Rashid, as the Gatekeeper doing his job, he talked to him.  So it is a real place in my opinion, perhaps it started as a mere gap where "reality" which encompasses the Nevernever as well as the world of mortals for lack of a better word, and the "outside" as in outside of reality.. And since Jim apparently is a fan of the classic Trek and Gene Roddenberry, I'm thinking of an episode called "The Alternative Factor," parallel universes, one made of positive matter the other of anti-matter, anyway if the two ever met it would be the end of everything.  To keep this from happening there was a corridor that acted as a safety valve to prevent that from happening.  I won't go into the details of the story, you can look it up, but my point is perhaps like the corridor with doors at both ends in the episode, the Gates function very much the same keeping Nemesis from invading and destroying our world, both the real as we know it and the Nevernever.

[BrainFireBob]

So the Outer Gates in Deep Fairy. But Fairy borders the mortal world. The never-never encompasses everything else outside Mortal World. Which includes fairy. So The Outsiders can go to the Never Never. But fairy guards The Outsiders from the mortal world. So it's looking like a round ball with fairy surrounding and then a wall then never never? But..Or...

Or is there a whole in reality in deep fairy between the never never and fairy that the wall blocks. And must have a gate for balance. That they always protect. Grab cup of coffee discuss?

Unsourced assumptions:

1) Outside the Outer Gates remains within the Nevernever
2) The Nevernever includes everything outside reality- ie, is infinite

Proposal: There is an uttermost edge of the Nevernever, and that is referred to as The Outer Gates.

The Nevernever itself is something like the multiple universes theorem- it is all the parallel universes that could be. Call it the wave function of reality. The light cones, then, would be the Outer Gates.

This is also similar to the Chronicles of Amber, with its infinite number of Shadows between the two anchors of reality.

The real world - or in theory, real worlds- have substance and mass. Faery, with its breeding dependence, therefore has real non-ectoplasm mass- hence why you can trap the Fae in circles and they don't splort like Binder's goons- whoch one supposrs gives them metaphorical momentum against outside.

Fun thought for later: Does the war at the Gates reflect reality expanding?

Anyway, Outside is Outside. Nothing says it's in the Nevernever.

[Mira]

Anyway, Outside is Outside. Nothing says it's in the Nevernever.

Exactly which fits with my theory that the germ of this idea is based on the classic Trek episode, "The Alternative Factor."

[morriswalters]

The scope of reality is unknown.  But the Nevernever seems to be "real" if not exactly bound by the same physical laws of the mortal universe.

The one fact we have on the realm of the Outsiders is that they have two ways of getting here from there, through the Gates or by being summoned by a Mortal.  Which fits in with what we know of the Oblivion War. It could be inferred that the Gates can be closed permanently if the Archive wins.

[Avernite]

The whole move together with Mother Summer implies to me that Faerie is ridiculously large. Else Harry could just find a route himself.

Or perhaps it's rather disjointed, with MS teleporting Harry along a particular route, Winter/Summer having alternative shortcuts that only the Fae take.

In either case, I would suspect the NN extends sideways a whole lot. We know Hades has a realm that touches reality, but I suspect it doesn't touch the Gates. When Ferrovax wants to Dragon around he probably has his demesne in the NN too.

So... Faerie and some others border reality. Faerie is big and mighty so it also extends to the Outer Gates. Others are wimpy so border only reality, and no doubt several realms usually don't really border reality, but can be shifted there by strong beings who haven't been Oblivioned (or by humans connecting with them).

[b4utoo]

I'm not getting the reference on the Archive?

(As in Butcher said it wouldn't make it into the books)

[morriswalters]

It arises from a short short featuring Thomas who is directed by Lara.  You can believe as much as Jim tells you, as suits you.  I think he lies if he feels the need.  But who am I?

Edit

You should find it odd that two potentially immortal beings are tied to the Oblivion War, Thomas and Lara.  You should find it even odder that Jim is marrying off Harry to Lara.  As long as Lara is alive the war can't be over.

[b4utoo]

Where pawns not knowing you?