Demonreach and the WC

[seanham]

There has been a lot of speculation about the White Council and a possible connection with the Senior Council. Regardless of the truth in that debate, what is known and clear is that the Senior Council (and maybe other members as well) know about Demonreach and are afraid of its power. After all, that was the main reason why the entire Council fought against Kemmler, to prevent him from returning to the Island. So my question is since the Council knew of the Island's power and were afraid of it, why didn't they have one of their own people bind it? Why would they leave that power open for any foolish young wizard to capture it for themselves?

[Cozarkian]

I'm not sure the entire Senior Council knows the truth about Demonreach. Facts about Demonreach include:

1. It has a powerful genus loci and leyline.
2. It is a prison for powerful beings
3. The Warden has the ability to free/control the prisoners.
4.

The Senior Council knows #1 and probably #2. They might not realize #3 and if there is a #4, I don't think most of them know. Depending on their state of knowledge, I see the following reasons nobody became the Warden before Harry:

1. None of them live nearby and it isn't very useful unless you tend to be on the island. It might be dangerous to travel too using the Ways and inconvenient to do so in person. The dark ley line is potentially dangerous and associated with Warlocks, so none of the Senior Council would trust another Senior Council member that took control.

2. See #1 - plus there is generally no perceived need for it as the dangerous creatures have been largely imprisoned already.

3. See #1 and 2 - plus no Senior Council member will permit another to have that kind of power.

4.

Also, maybe the cost and risk of failing to bind it is simply too high. By the same token, there isn't a strong risk of foolish young wizard taking control because 1) Demonreach discourages vistiors and 2) young foolish wizards might not be able to take it over. Harry is young and foolish, but substantially more powerful than most young and foolish wizards.

[RobReece]

What connection are you talking about between Kemmler and the Island? The whole council went after him because the whole council was needed.  Between his own power and the Kemmlerites, they were a huge threat, look at the wars he was responsible for.  I don't think I've seen anything that connects him to the Island.   

If I missed something,  let me know...

[seanham]

What connection are you talking about between Kemmler and the Island?

Kemmler was the last Warden of Deamonreach. I think the WOJ, or somewhere in the books, said that the reason for them fighting (or WW2???) was all to prevent Kemmler from returning to the Island; if someone could provide the exact wording, that would be appreciated!

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Kemmler was the last Warden but one before Harry, it is indeed in A WOJ offered when Jim was asked about the Warden before Harry, and wouldn’t say, so it obviously plays into a significant plot point, and may have been someone we know or heard about. One of the deceased Senior Council perhaps? Obviously they hadn’t been to the island for some time.

My thought was that Warden was put in place to prevent Kemmler returning and reclaiming the wardenship, and really nothing more, but his role was enough to mark him for death.

I think it was LaFortier, whose murder in Turncoat is unexplained as regards motive, but what if it was a play for the wardenship, but before the Black Council could get their Warden in place Harry does a Sanctum Invocation. That’s the motive for his murder, to free up Demonreach and access to its prisoners. The mind control by Peabody was Plan A, but it wasn’t working or working fast enough. Murder was Plan B but then everything went all Dresden.  La Fortier had interests in other parts of the world, once Warden he probably ignored Demonreach.

It also explains the interest in the Black Council with Chicago, Harry had settled right next to Demonreach, so his early cases were them aiming various people at Harry to get rid of him, Dead Beat was to tap into Demonreach’s ley line to power the Dark Hallow, Cold Days and Battle Ground had Nemesis making direct plays to break in.

The Black Council were never really interested in Harry, they were interested in Demonreach, looking to get one of their own as Warden and then a powerful rogue young Wizard moved to nearby Chicago, and ends up going to Demonreach in Small Favour. That may have panicked the Black Council, and why they set the captain of Wardens on him, not just because he wasn’t subject to Peabody’s influence.

The Black Council must really, really hate Harry, time and time again he buggers up their plans by accident.

[seanham]

That's a great explanation, Conspiracy Theorist!

I agree that whoever was Warden last hadn't been there recently. Which then goes into another question. What does it take to be the Warden? Is the Sanctum Invocation enough? It is definitely the first step. Or does the Warden need to return to the island once every year or something to retain their Wardenship?

[Snark Knight]

Also, maybe the cost and risk of failing to bind it is simply too high. By the same token, there isn't a strong risk of foolish young wizard taking control because 1) Demonreach discourages vistiors and 2) young foolish wizards might not be able to take it over. Harry is young and foolish, but substantially more powerful than most young and foolish wizards.

And even being substantially more powerful and foolish than most of his generation, he still likely would have failed - perhaps fatally - without the benefit of the soulfire buff that the rest of the council didn't know he even had.

I think it was LaFortier, whose murder in Turncoat is unexplained as regards motive, but what if it was a play for the wardenship, but before the Black Council could get their Warden in place Harry does a Sanctum Invocation.

Ooh, that's a good one.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Small Favour and Turn Coat are back to back so it makes sense. Harry going to the island probably signed La Fortiers death warrant, the Black Council needed the wardenship vacated earlier than anticipated, imagine Cold Days with a Dark Warden in place instead of Harry. Maeve could have just walked in. Instead she had to expose herself.

Maybe that was one of the reasons Peabody turned up in Turn Coat, on Demonreach to claim the Wardenship, vacant with LaFortiers death only to find Harry had beaten him to it, if he was Warden the Senior Council would have been vulnerable to him he would have been able to defeat them as they dealt with the Naagloshii, irrespective of Harry’s bluff. Remember Peabody is an expert on summoning and binding, the Erl King would have been excellent practice for taking on Alfred. He must have been researching such things for a century since Kemmler lost the Wardenship.

Peabody the pen pusher is small fry for the Black Council, Peabody the Dark Warden in waiting not so much.

[Mira]

And even being substantially more powerful and foolish than most of his generation, he still likely would have failed - perhaps fatally - without the benefit of the soulfire buff that the rest of the council didn't know he even had.

Yes, lets keep in mind that Harry had no clue of the consequences of what he was doing at the time he did it.  All he was doing was trying to buy time for Morgan and keep from being turned into a grease spot by the Senior Council.   He didn't seek to be Warden of Demonreach, heck he didn't know it had had or needed one until the end of Ghost Story.  So just the fact that he accomplished it anyway shocked the crap out of number of the Senior Council who are also scared of the kind of foe Harry could be when he realizes how much leverage this fact gives him.  So naturally they want him eliminated.  I am remind of the brief conversation between Harry and Listen's to Wind, when Listens sort of brings up the above.. To which Harry answers by pointing to his battered head, "Dude.." 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Oh I think Harry’s Subconscious had figured it out, it is quite a bit smarter than conscious Harry, like for example about  “the parasite”.

That doesn’t make it better does it? Conscious Harry is in the drivers seat.

[morriswalters]

Why would the most dangerous prison in the universe not vet it's warden? Imagine Alcatraz installing Al Capone as Warden. It reads more like Kemmler was corrupted by using the ley lines while he was Warden at the prison and was returning to use them to do a Dark Hallow. You even have Rashid warning Harry about using them.

[Mira]

Why would the most dangerous prison in the universe not vet it's warden? Imagine Alcatraz installing Al Capone as Warden. It reads more like Kemmler was corrupted by using the ley lines while he was Warden at the prison and was returning to use them to do a Dark Hallow. You even have Rashid warning Harry about using them.

The Warden is vetted, not in a conventional way to be sure, but the whole genus loci thing was the vetting of Harry.  Perhaps the weakness of the system is that it doesn't vet for character, merely for the strength and talent of the applicant.  Then again there must be ways to remove a bad one, if indeed Kemmler was the Warden at one time, apparently in the end he couldn't use his position to he advantage.

[Ed0517]

I'm not sure the entire Senior Council knows the truth about Demonreach. Facts about Demonreach include:

1. It has a powerful genus loci and leyline.
2. It is a prison for powerful beings
3. The Warden has the ability to free/control the prisoners.
4.

The Senior Council knows #1 and probably #2. They might not realize #3 and if there is a #4, I don't think most of them know. Depending on their state of knowledge, I see the following reasons nobody became the Warden before Harry:

1. None of them live nearby and it isn't very useful unless you tend to be on the island. It might be dangerous to travel too using the Ways and inconvenient to do so in person. The dark ley line is potentially dangerous and associated with Warlocks, so none of the Senior Council would trust another Senior Council member that took control.

There are at least a couple of Ways... (presumably) Peabody gates in during the faceoff, somewhere on the far side.  Rashid gates in to Whatsup Dock. Now, that was a good one - water tends to weaken things... was there a Way over water before the Dock was built? Did a NEW Way come into existence when Harry and Thomas built the dock? And if you have Ways... I have to imagine distance doesn't matter. Wasn't it established that at some point Rashid walks on the Moon between Ways? That's, what, 239,000 miles? Peabody and buddy walked it. Gotta think Eb or Langtry could. Rashid knows his Way.

2. See #1 - plus there is generally no perceived need for it as the dangerous creatures have been largely imprisoned already.

3. See #1 and 2 - plus no Senior Council member will permit another to have that kind of power.

 #3 is DEAD on target. Kemmler was not Senior Council. He was a warden.
People graduate from Warden. Eb did. He was captain, I think it was when Luccio was in the West. Pre-bodyswap, Luccio was spoken as a candidate for the Council. They don't want a potential boost in the hands of another Senior. Balance of power and all. They cannot be happy a young brash wizard with a lot of natural power has the keys to the explosives chest. Not even knowing if he can bind the prisoners, he has the ley line that has dark energy that can corrupt.

[Ed0517]

Kemmler was the last Warden of Deamonreach. I think the WOJ, or somewhere in the books, said that the reason for them fighting (or WW2???) was all to prevent Kemmler from returning to the Island; if someone could provide the exact wording, that would be appreciated!

I thought the big teamup was to keep Kemmler from pulling off the Darkhallow.  That would be a huge powerup.  Now, if a wizard pulled it off in desperation - could they have faced off with Ethniu?

[Ed0517]

The Warden is vetted, not in a conventional way to be sure, but the whole genus loci thing was the vetting of Harry.  Perhaps the weakness of the system is that it doesn't vet for character, merely for the strength and talent of the applicant.  Then again there must be ways to remove a bad one, if indeed Kemmler was the Warden at one time, apparently in the end he couldn't use his position to he advantage.

The warden IS vetted - by Demonreach himself. I don't think Harry stands a chance against the genius loci - but he shows power, and courage, and will. So Alfred signs off. Reminds me of the time Harry took the Wild Hunt from the Erlking and Vadderung. He knows the Erlking let himself get hit. Harry is not in the same class as those two.  It's willingness they want.

one thing - Harry's talk with the bandaged head - I may be wrong, but wasn't that with Rashid, not Listens?