Harry should have trusted Ramirez

[morriswalters]

Actually Mab telling Harry to kill Molly is foreshadowed in Cold Days. When Harry is trying to determine if or not to obey Mab. Mother Summer asks Harry how Maeve would treat him. Molly is on the same horse she is just a different rider.  Maeve hated Harry. Molly loves him.  It's two different faces of the same coin. And Mab tells Harry as much in Battle Ground.

“Everyone,” she said, “thinks that hate and love are somehow opposite forces. They are not. They are the same force, facing opposite directions.” She glanced aside at me. “Love is a fire, my Knight. Love turned the wrong way has killed as many as hate.

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 394). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

The point of my argument with CT is that the primary story arc in the books through Cold Days represents an attack on the Fae Courts, though primarily Winter and Mab. The Fae get more time on the page in the books through Cold Days then any of the other characters. They show up in all of these.

Grave Peril
Summer Knight
Dead Beat
Proven Guilty
Small Favor
Changes
Ghost Story
Cold Days

[Mira]

Actually Mab telling Harry to kill Molly is foreshadowed in Cold Days. When Harry is trying to determine if or not to obey Mab. Mother Summer asks Harry how Maeve would treat him. Molly is on the same horse she is just a different rider.  Maeve hated Harry. Molly loves him.  It's two different faces of the same coin. And Mab tells Harry as much in Battle Ground.

I don't think Maeve hated Harry, I don't think she was capable of love or hate, not where Harry comes in.  I think she loved her mother and it turned into hate or more like the quote you sight.   I also don't think it is the same horse exactly either.  Even if it is the same horse, it is all about how it is ridden that counts in the end, that is why jockeys are so important.

[morriswalters]

Argue it with Mab, she stated it in the text, I'm not that cretive

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Maeve didn’t know the difference between love and hate, she was deeply insane only held together at all by her Mantle.

This wasn’t a new development, however the nemfection of Lea distracted Mab from dealing with Maeve and Lloyd Slate and the existing problems in her Court. She had placed the Redcap to watch Maeve because of them.

Lea was a diversion. It delayed Mab taking action against Maeve.

Maeve was intent on taking action against humanity, not in succeeding Mab.

[Mira]

Maeve didn’t know the difference between love and hate, she was deeply insane only held together at all by her Mantle.

This wasn’t a new development, however the nemfection of Lea distracted Mab from dealing with Maeve and Lloyd Slate and the existing problems in her Court. She had placed the Redcap to watch Maeve because of them.

Lea was a diversion. It delayed Mab taking action against Maeve.

Maeve was intent on taking action against humanity, not in succeeding Mab.

I actually agree with this, she was warped even before she got infected with the Knife.  While Mab didn't realize Maeve was infected until it was too late to cure her, I don't think infected Lea as a distraction is the reason.  Mab, I think loved both her daughters, and in truth willfully blinded herself to the short comings, excesses, and twisted behavior of her daughter, who also was the Winter Lady.  Even with Red Cap keeping an eye on her, it wasn't enough and she still didn't catch the fact that her daughter was infected, the prior behavior was that outrageous. That is the main reason why Molly has been so busy, she has been playing catch up and making up for the hundred fifty years plus of Maeve's misbehavior and neglect of her job.

[morriswalters]

I can only go with the text. I've cited chapter and verse to support my position and as such that is all I can do.

[Mira]

I can only go with the text. I've cited chapter and verse to support my position and as such that is all I can do.

I appreciate that, we are just reading it differently is all. That is what this board is about different opinions about what we are reading.

Mab isn't wrong as far as love killing as many as hate, it has and does.  I need to see the quote in context because I don't think it applies to Maeve and Molly in terms of the "same horse in this case, since Maeve was mentally disturbed, then infected and became more insane, while Molly is not. 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I think maybe Maeve welcomed the infection, it allowed her to lie despite the Mantle, and act against it.

Nemesis can only be in so many places at once. What if Mab didn’t cure Lea, but Nemesis voluntarily left Lea for a more willing vessel? Maeve. What if Mab knew this? She just tortured Lea until Nemesis moved to the host she wanted it to move to.

[Mira]

I think maybe Maeve welcomed the infection, it allowed her to lie despite the Mantle, and act against it.

Nemesis can only be in so many places at once. What if Mab didn’t cure Lea, but Nemesis voluntarily left Lea for a more willing vessel? Maeve. What if Mab knew this? She just tortured Lea until Nemesis moved to the host she wanted it to move to.

I am wondering if Maeve wasn't Nemesis's target all along?  There were hints early on that Lea was a bit discontented thinking perhaps that Mab didn't appreciate her.  So when Harry out of ignorance and fear tried to kill her with the Sword of Love and she gained the Sword it gave her an opening when she is gifted the Knife.  What is odd though is the next time we see the Knife if I remember correctly it is Mab that is wearing it in her belt.  No mention of Maeve being anywhere near it if I remember correctly.  What is also odd, is though Mab is seen wearing the Knife in her belt, she somehow eludes infection.  Or did she?  We think in Proven Guilty that in the ice garden where Lea is undergoing treatment, Mab is just hiding out.  Or is she? Did she by this time realize the source of Lea's infection and is prophetically treating herself as well?  I think so.. Having said all of that when did Maeve come in contact with the Knife? Did Lea let her examine it before Mab got hold of it?  Mab evidently realized pretty quickly that it was infected, but didn't realize that Maeve had had contact? Or more likely I think, the target was Maeve, she got the full blast of the infection, that is really why Mab couldn't cure her.  She and Lea on the other hand had fairly mild infections, so they were able to treat it and were cured. 

[vincentric]

Maeve didn't want to be cured, Lea did. Lea admits that she wasn't in her right mind in GS and Sarissa makes this point to Maeve in CD. Maeve rejects the overture and Mab's offer to cure her and return her to her duties, thus sealing her fate.

[Mira]

Maeve didn't want to be cured, Lea did. Lea admits that she wasn't in her right mind in GS and Sarissa makes this point to Maeve in CD. Maeve rejects the overture and Mab's offer to cure her and return her to her duties, thus sealing her fate.

That's my point, though you express it better than me.  Maeve was the real target, Nemesis merely used Lea to get near her.  Nemesis knew that Maeve was vulnerable in the extreme, and was also aware of the dynamics that set up her eventual infection.  They also understood that because she was already unstable her infection would go unnoticed by Mab until it was too late for her to do anything about it except what she did.  I also think the scene with Harry in the chapel in Small Favor is Mab realizing what had happened and being totally pissed with herself over it.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Athame was vector for a strong and unwilling host. Maeve was a willing host, so transmission was Athame to Lea (unwilling but strong) to Maeve (strong but willing) to Justine (unwilling but weak).

Again Mab must have realised that Justine was likely Nemfected right from Cold Days, but didn’t tell Harry.

[morriswalters]

Mab states precisely how Maeve was nemfected in the denouement in Cold Days.  Lea got to Maeve before Mab got to Lea. My best guess is somewhere around Summer Knight.

“It was the knife,” Mab said. “Knife?” “Morgana’s athame,” Mab said in a neutral tone—but her eyes were far away. “The one given her by the Red Court at Bianca’s masquerade. That was how the Leanansidhe was tainted—and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 513). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Mab shows up in Dead Beat with the Atheme which places Lea on ice at the point.

"Because I do not tolerate challenges to my authority," she said. One pale hand drifted to the hilt of the knife at her belt. "Certain events had convinced your godmother that she was no longer bound by my word and will. She is now learning otherwise."

So at that point Maeve must also be nemfected.

To quote from the Lord of the Rings. "One does not simply walk into Mordor." You just don't portal into Mab's fortress. Otherwise she would have all sorts of deviants creeping in trying to kill her. And we know she can restrict it from Cold Days.

without inside help. Even traveling by Ways takes at least some time, and I’d expected a hike back to the real world. “How?” I asked quietly. “Her Majesty had it made,” Sith said. I whistled. Intentionally forming a connection from a specific place to a specific place took amounts of energy so enormous that even the White Council of Wizards could rarely manage it—I’d seen it done only once in my lifetime, the year before, in Chichén Itzá. “She had it made? For me?” “Indeed,” Sith said. “In fact, this is, for the time being, the only way in or out of Faerie.” I blinked several times. “You mean Winter?” “Faerie,” Sith stated. “All of it.” I choked. “Wait. You mean all of Faerie is on lockdown?”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (pp. 76-77). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Maeve had to be the one who opened the door by setting up a portal in Pell's theater.

But, Harry sinks Cowls battleship in Dead Beat, he doesn't ascend, doesn't get to play god. Namshiel has to haul ass because Winter is coming for blood(There is actually a WOJ on this)

At the end of the day, the Winter Queen was still in her fortress–but you didn’t see anyone standing around assaulting the place, did ya.   Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments–exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.

. Maeve lets him out and they both scoot. Had Cowl succeeded poof on the WC and Mab would have be looking over her shoulder.  On the other hand if Maeve wanted to disappear all she had to do was git. I'm open to any better narrative.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Yep, I read the same passage from Cold Days in formulating my theory, and it is consistent with it.

Again Lea being on ice in Dead Beat is a given, but not that Maeve is infected at that point. Lea is still infected by Proven Guilty and the attack on Arctis Tor to “free her” is supposed to have failed, but it is only presumed that this was to “free” Lea. It may have been the point of infection for Maeve as well as to test the level of protection of Demonreach’s backdoor.

The invaders were not portalling into Arctis Tor, they broke in via the Front Gate, they would have gone to a marshalling point in Winter not protected and from there and travelled by foot. Part of Nemfected Leas purpose may have been to be discovered and inprisoned, either confirming or re-making the backdoor to Demonreach.

Pell’s theatre may have been a natural congruency to the part of Winter where the phobo phages dwelt, it dealt in phantom images of fear, and had for quite some time. If so it would explain why Peabody travelled from Edinburgh to Chicago, he then only had to travel across town by cab to Pell’s theatre, come out near Arctis Tor to be met by Maeve who took him to Mab’s ice prison and the backdoor to Demonreach. Peabody simply didn’t have a more direct route, and this route had been surveyed by the Black Council in Proven Guilty.

Mab may have allowed the attack to confirm a few things, such as Maeve’s connivance, Denarian involvement with the Black Council, having this as Molly’s audition for a potential Winter Lady, and getting a further handle on Harry to be the Winter Knight. It may also have been allowed to lull the Black Council into a false sense of security.

Remember Nicky was owed a favour by Mab before and during Proven Guilty, so wouldn’t the attack by the Denarians have erased that? It confirmed Nicky wasn’t in control of all the Denarians to Mab, as the favour still stood until Skin Game. Harry further confirmed this in Battle Ground with Namshiel.

[Mira]

Remember Nicky was owed a favour by Mab before and during Proven Guilty, so wouldn’t the attack by the Denarians have erased that? It confirmed Nicky wasn’t in control of all the Denarians to Mab, as the favour still stood until Skin Game. Harry further confirmed this in Battle Ground with Namshiel.

Mab has a bone to pick with Namshiel for using Hell Fire on Arctis Tor, she states it clearly in Small Favor.  Wonder how she is going to react to Marcone once she finds out he has the coin.