Author Topic: Harry should have trusted Ramirez  (Read 44658 times)

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #105 on: January 27, 2022, 02:27:42 PM »
Mea culpa on calling Alfred the Warden.

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #106 on: January 27, 2022, 05:10:24 PM »
Mea culpa on calling Alfred the Warden.

Well, we all make mistakes. ::)
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That would presume they can reach a consensus. The entire point is they don't agree on who a good candidate is. I imagine some think that no one is a good candidate. The entire point of the White Council is to limit power. The position of Warden gives too much power to an individual.

Doesn't the fact that they allow one of their members to hold the Blackstaff and be the Council's assassin contradict that?  Basically they are trusting Eb's character to limit the real damage he can do with that staff.  In Battleground Eb has shown himself to be a bit shaky emotionally, there is no guarantee that he won't go rouge.  The Merlin himself has shown some inclination towards abuse of power for political reasons.   
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True enough. But my rebuttal was to your argument that private journals don't have general statements, and as the entire series is full of general statements I think we can make a reasonable assumption that private journals do have general statements in them. Not to mention that the specific bit Harry reads was intended by Ebenezar for Harry to read. So while it might not be for public access, the section we are discussing was meant for more than just Eb to read (in point of fact it was intended for someone else specifically who is discussed in the passage).

The fact that Eb meant for Harry to read it, or that is Harry's assumption he was meant to read it, since the book just happened to be open, doesn't make what Eb wrote a general statement. 
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The specific bit you quote here ("I sometimes can't help but think there is such a thing as fate") is Eb's opinion specifically on how he feels the Council is getting in it's own way. He quite literally says right after the "I" statement "We, in our ignorance, do to thwart it". So it's Ebenezar's ("I") opinion about how the White Council ("we") are subverting themselves.
Both can be true at the same time.  Eb is giving a personal opinion that the Council is getting in it's own way by it's ignorance, and as a member of the Council, he includes himself.  We see it everyday in Congress, a member can say in his or her personal opinion that a proposal is right or wrong, but at the same time not excluding himself or herself from the general proposal put forth.
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Exactly right, it is different. Hence why Jim says that the Senior Council's only thought is that Harry must have been really stupid because they don't think he knew what he was doing when he signed up. Which is exactly why they didn't execute him straight away (that, and the fact they really need a weapons stash right now). Except all bets are off since Battle Ground because he clearly knows how to defend his Island far better now AND has shown he can take on major heavy weight hitters. All he needs to show now is that he can compel those beings into giving him power and/or knowledge, and even perhaps potentially commanding them as his personal weapons and he will completely terrify the White Council. It's the equivalent of showing he can build, defend, and deploy nukes.

As I said in another post, rereading what Rashid told him in Turn Coat, I don't think it is about commanding any of the inmates to do his bidding, it is about tapping the power from the Leylines that emirate from the island and it's inmates.  The scary bit is Rashid left that open, he said that Harry wasn't ready yet to attempt such a thing.
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I think you've misunderstood Morris's point. The two-year old Morris is referring to is Harry, not Alfred. Hence why he points out Rashid choking. So did Eb when he found out (although there are clearly other reasons he thought Harry was crazy i.e. who would want to bring that much stress on themselves?) Morris is incorrect in saying that Alfred was made Warden by the original Merlin. Alfred isn't the Warden. He is the interface, the guards, the monitoring systems, the punishment provider etc. He literally says so himself, and we've seen some of his limits. He doesn't have free will as he isn't mortal. He cannot choose to imprison or release a being. He can only act in accordance with the will of the Warden. That said, he clearly has some scope in how to operate within his limits...and so it probably a very good case study of certain types of immortals. I might have said angels but they seem to be a special case, same with gods.

Morriswalter has to be the one to clear that up.  Yes, one could argue that Harry is like a two year as you say.  However if you read what Morgan says about beings of intellectus, you will understand better why the island needs a Warden.  First of all Alfred is the island, so you can say the island has it... Here are a few things Morgan says about beings with intellectus; Turn Coat page 278

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Morgan spoke.  "A being with intellectus does not understand, for example, how to derive a complex calculus equation--because it doesn't need to process.  If you showed him a problem and an equation, he would simply understand it and skip straight to the answer without need to think through the logical stages of solving the problem."
Alfred knows the island needs a Warden, skips to the end when Harry comes along and does the genius loci, makes him Warden.  Alfred isn't thinking through whether or not Harry would be a good one or a bad one.. Problem, island needs a Warden, skip to the end, Harry.

Molly asks Morgan if being an intellectus is omniscient?  Morgans tells her they are not the same thing.  An intellectus has to focus in order the know something. Omniscient knows everything at all times.  Then on page 279 he gets to the crux of why the island needs a Warden and why the island to use Morriswalters example is like a two year old being in charge without one.
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"Intellectuswouldn't save you from an assassin's bullet if you didn't know someone wanted to kill you in the first place," I said.  "To know it is coming, you'd first need to consider the question of whether or not an assassin might be lurking in a dark doorway or on top of a bell tower.

In other words the island without a proper Warden cannot properly defend itself because it cannot imagine what to look for to prevent it.

Morgan nods in agreement and adds a metaphor of his own.  Again page 279
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Morgan grunted agreement. "And since beings of intellectus so rarely understand broader ideas of cause and effect, they can be unlikely to realize that a given event might be an indicator of an upcoming assassination attempt."  "Though that's a terrible metaphor, Dresden.

Now comes the part that really fits the example that Alfred/the island is really like a two year old;
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Most beings like that are immortal.  They are hard-pressed to notice bullets, much less feel threatened by them."

Because he is immortal he has a hard time understanding that the island is being threatened.  Like a two year old doesn't understand that a hot stove will burn, he needs an adult to explain it.
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Is that the case with Demonreach though? It knew the Outsiders were attacking it from the water in Cold Days. It also knew that it was being attacked through time as well. It's only "confusion" was in the case of the faeries which Dresden hypothesized as it being connected through nature to them...but Mab seems to indicate that Alfred had the option of defeating them and held back as a curtesy to Mab. Harry didn't tell Demonreach it was being attacked at all in Cold Days, if anything it was the reverse. Alfred is similar to current AI programs in that it's really just a bunch of predetermined responses to certain stimuli, and while capable of "learning" that doesn't mean it makes choices in the way most people seem them. There is a simplicity to it. Another way to look at it might be like asking the AI to capture specific computer viruses in a "vault". It can do as you ask, but it's up to the user (and initially the programmer) to decide what the AI recognizes as a virus in the first place.

Yes, it does apply to the island... Going back to the assassin metaphor... As Morgan says;
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Most beings like that are immortal.  They are hard-pressed to notice bullets, much less feel threatened by them."

In other words, without a Warden, the island might know it's about to be attacked, but would have a hard time imagining how it would be attacked or that it is vulnerable to being attacked.

And yes, with a fully engaged Warden after Harry's been there a year, he says in Skin Game. Page 6

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I'd spent the last year acquainting myself with the island's secrets, with the defenses that I hadn't even known existed---defenses that could be activated only by the Warden.  If the Walker tried that play again, I could shut him down single-handed.  Even Mab as powerful as she was, would be well-advised to be cautious if she decided to start trouble on Demonreach soil. Which is why she was standing on the dock

Mab could prevent communication going to and from Harry, she could prevent him leaving or going, but without his leave, she could not step on the island now that he was fully installed as it's Warden.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #107 on: January 27, 2022, 06:38:33 PM »
@Mira
Yuillegan nailed it precisely. Making Harry Warden without Harry knowing what it implies borders on insanity. It would be like handing a toddler a loaded gun with no safety. If Butcher expects me to buy into that he needs to bring something to the table to explain why you would allow that.

On Mab and the danger the island represents to her.  Given the control that Mab has over Harry as her Knight she could walk him off the pier and make him drown himself. She could alter his memory and make him forget where the island is. Harry would only be a danger to her if she were stupid.


Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #108 on: January 27, 2022, 06:48:09 PM »
@Mira
Yuillegan nailed it precisely. Making Harry Warden without Harry knowing what it implies borders on insanity. It would be like handing a toddler a loaded gun with no safety. If Butcher expects me to buy into that he needs to bring something to the table to explain why you would allow that.

On Mab and the danger the island represents to her.  Given the control that Mab has over Harry as her Knight she could walk him off the pier and make him drown himself. She could alter his memory and make him forget where the island is. Harry would only be a danger to her if she were stupid.

Consider though, Harry didn't make himself Warden, Alfred did.. So who exactly is using the judgement of a two year old?  The guy who punched him in the nose not knowing what he was doing?  Or the guy who made him his Warden because he was able to do it? 

Mab might be able to do those things if Harry was off the island, but not while he is on it.  As he says, when she collected him she stayed on the dock until he gave her his permission to step on to the island.  Remember the last bit of Cold Days, and this was before Harry knew of the extent of his power, when Mab threatened him?  He called Alfred forward and told him to grab Mab is she did anything of that kind, she turned pale..  Also lets not forget she also asked Harry's permission to bury Maeve and Ivy on the island.. Unless it was totally to her advantage to leave the island Wardenless, she isn't going to mess with Harry in the way you suggest.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #109 on: January 27, 2022, 08:44:50 PM »
Harry is the two year old in the analogy. The question was why make him Warden? You may be able accept that a prison guard at the most dangerous prison in the Universe took on Harry as the Warden without references.  I'm having some trouble swallowing it. Seems
Consider though, Harry didn't make himself Warden, Alfred did.. So who exactly is using the judgement of a two year old?  The guy who punched him in the nose not knowing what he was doing?  Or the guy who made him his Warden because he was able to do it? 

Mab might be able to do those things if Harry was off the island, but not while he is on it.  As he says, when she collected him she stayed on the dock until he gave her his permission to step on to the island.  Remember the last bit of Cold Days, and this was before Harry knew of the extent of his power, when Mab threatened him?  He called Alfred forward and told him to grab Mab is she did anything of that kind, she turned pale..  Also lets not forget she also asked Harry's permission to bury Maeve and Ivy on the island.. Unless it was totally to her advantage to leave the island Wardenless, she isn't going to mess with Harry in the way you suggest.
rather above his pay grade. The more I examine it, the less I like it.


Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #110 on: January 28, 2022, 12:58:43 PM »
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Harry is the two year old in the analogy. The question was why make him Warden? You may be able accept that a prison guard at the most dangerous prison in the Universe took on Harry as the Warden without references.  I'm having some trouble swallowing it. Seems

I guess that is a question for Jim isn't it?  For starters while one can question Harry's judgement in doing the genus loki in the first place.  I apologize for the spelling of that, haven't time to look it up this morning. Harry didn't ask for the job, he didn't kick and scream to get it, he didn't even know the job existed.  I guess it is also a question for the island, why did it make Harry it's Warden? But here are a couple of points about that

1] If the Council had it's act together in the first place and the island had a proper Warden, Harry wouldn't have been able to do the thing he did to unwittingly become one. 
2] The only thing the island requires apparently is someone with enough talent and strength to do it.  This actually might be the way Kemmler became Warden in the first place.  He wasn't appointed, but he knew of the island and what to do to become it's Warden..
3] Though the island has intellectus, it still needs a parent/Warden, because like all two year olds, the island has no judgement as far as knowing when it is in real danger.

One final thought about this is, someone on the Council must know all of this, yet they seem to think it a secret it won't happen..  Oh goodness, who is acting like a two year old now?  So the island is left vulnerable, to attack, to the wrong person or entity becoming it's Warden, and lastly and more importantly, without a Warden, it has no way to jail those who really needs locking up..

So again, I ask you, who is the two year old?   

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #111 on: January 28, 2022, 02:47:09 PM »
There was a prison called Alcatraz. What the people who put the prison in the bay wanted to do was keep the prisoners in and everybody else out.  They did not have the Warden selected by a trial of strength between the chief screw and and random people from the mainland.

That is effectively how Harry got to be Warden.  Not through wisdom or intelligence or knowledge of what he was doing. But by having a pissing contest with an intelligent rock to solve an unrelated problem.  To say this is idiotic is to understate just how dumb the idea is in isolation.

The island has a fail safe that would destroy Chicago if activated. It holds Dark Gods and monsters. And then Butcher tries to convince me that Harry gets to be Warden by chance? If you can eat that apple then I envy you.


Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #112 on: January 28, 2022, 03:10:30 PM »
There was a prison called Alcatraz. What the people who put the prison in the bay wanted to do was keep the prisoners in and everybody else out.  They did not have the Warden selected by a trial of strength between the chief screw and and random people from the mainland.

That is effectively how Harry got to be Warden.  Not through wisdom or intelligence or knowledge of what he was doing. But by having a pissing contest with an intelligent rock to solve an unrelated problem.  To say this is idiotic is to understate just how dumb the idea is in isolation.

The island has a fail safe that would destroy Chicago if activated. It holds Dark Gods and monsters. And then Butcher tries to convince me that Harry gets to be Warden by chance? If you can eat that apple then I envy you.
That is one interpretation. But maybe the island just used his intellectus to sense if Harry was warden material and the rest was just for show, to make it not too easy.

The job did save his life
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #113 on: January 28, 2022, 04:23:35 PM »
That is one interpretation. But maybe the island just used his intellectus to sense if Harry was warden material and the rest was just for show, to make it not too easy.

The job did save his life

  Yes, and I also got the sense that Alfred bargained with Mab as well, for Harry to keep the job. Rereading the pages of Ghost Story when Harry first wakes up, Harry is her Knight, but apparently Alfred/the island like Uriel has  something to say about the direction of Harry's life.  I don't think on that basis that Mab will be trying to sabotage Harry on that front.
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There was a prison called Alcatraz. What the people who put the prison in the bay wanted to do was keep the prisoners in and everybody else out.  They did not have the Warden selected by a trial of strength between the chief screw and and random people from the mainland.

For starters, Alcatraz is a mortal prison, Alcatraz did have a warden, and yes, the warden did have to meet certain qualifications to be appointed to the job. We don't know what the island wants in it's Warden, but as Morgan said, those with intellectus are immortal,because of that, there are dangers they cannot conceive of.  So while the qualification of strength and talent are implanted on it, corruption, stupidity, and immaturity,might not be something it sees as a problem.
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That is effectively how Harry got to be Warden.  Not through wisdom or intelligence or knowledge of what he was doing. But by having a pissing contest with an intelligent rock to solve an unrelated problem.  To say this is idiotic is to understate just how dumb the idea is in isolation.

That is a flaw with the island, has nothing to do with Harry.  He didn't even know about the prison, that the island needed a Warden, and once the island selected him, no one on the Senior Council or the Council at large prevented him from getting it.  Mab and Uriel did nothing while Harry was in a coma on the island to prevent him from becoming the island's custodian.  I am not sure Harry can even quit if he wanted to.  In short, Harry wasn't acting like a two year old having a tantrum demanding the Warden job.  The island decided he was up for it, and Harry accepted it like a man and is doing the best that he can.  Whether that is good enough remains to be seen.
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The island has a fail safe that would destroy Chicago if activated. It holds Dark Gods and monsters. And then Butcher tries to convince me that Harry gets to be Warden by chance? If you can eat that apple then I envy you.

That is another question for Jim..  However since Harry has been Warden he managed, with help to prevent an Outsider invasion of the island and the bomb going off.. He also managed to jail a Titian who was hell bent on destroying Chicago and beyond.. He managed to figure out that Justine was infected with an Outsider, again saving the island, though that was close.  I'd say so far he has done pretty well.. Now does that mean he won't make mistakes, costly ones,in the future? No, it doesn't, but that can be said of anybody in spite of qualifications or lack there of.

Oh and one last point when trying to compare Harry to a two year old.  In Skin Game he also passed Hades' test to acquire those Artifacts..  Here is what Hades said; page 347 Skin Game

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"To prevent anyone without skill or commitment to use them well from having them," he said. "It is not my task to keep them from all of mortal kind---only from the incompetents."

Apparently that goes for becoming Warden of the island as well, Harry was competent enough to call it up and show his strength and commitment, and that is all that it required.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 04:41:22 PM by Mira »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #114 on: January 28, 2022, 05:01:53 PM »
That is one interpretation. But maybe the island just used his intellectus to sense if Harry was warden material and the rest was just for show, to make it not too easy.

The job did save his life
I can't say what Butcher is thinking.  I'm willing to accept that AI evaluated Harry and found him to be a worthy Warden. But then again according to Butcher he gave Kemmler the position.

@Mira
I never said Harry was a 2 year old throwing a tantrum.  And I've repeated it three times.  Two year olds may throw tantrums, but they also pick up loaded guns and kill themselves or others. Because otherwise rational adults leave guns where two year olds can get at them. I can't make it any clearer then that.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #115 on: January 28, 2022, 05:27:38 PM »
I can't say what Butcher is thinking.  I'm willing to accept that AI evaluated Harry and found him to be a worthy Warden. But then again according to Butcher he gave Kemmler the position.
Maybe Kemmler was an effective warden. White council rules ae not necessarily relevant here.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #116 on: January 28, 2022, 07:50:15 PM »
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I never said Harry was a 2 year old throwing a tantrum.  And I've repeated it three times.  Two year olds may throw tantrums, but they also pick up loaded guns and kill themselves or others. Because otherwise rational adults leave guns where two year olds can get at them. I can't make it any clearer then that.
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I never said that you did, if you think that, I am sorry you got that impression, because that wasn't my intent.  I was merely illustrating what two year olds can be like in their worst light, that Harry didn't act like that to get the job that he didn't know he was getting.  If you want to say Harry in charge is like putting a two year old in charge.  Okay, using your analogy, I think it is more like leaving a two year old home alone.  The two year old didn't ask to be left behind, but since it was done, he has to do the best that he can as responsibly as a two year old can.  Can you offer any examples where Harry has acted like a two year old since he became Warden of the island?
So far, Harry hasn't acted like a two year old as far as being Warden of Demonreach, he has acted rather responsibly, like an adult.  The two year old is the intellectus or Alfred, who like most two year olds, doesn't understand when he is in real danger, thus he needs an adult or Warden to supervise.  As Harry says in Skin Game, there are defense systems on the island that only the Warden can implement, in other words, the island needs adult supervision.

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Maybe Kemmler was an effective warden. White council rules ae not necessarily relevant here.

Could be, more to the point I think is the White Council may have no real say in the matter.  Which might be the real answer, as long as whoever passes the island's test for a Warden, he or she gets to be it, end of story.  The island isn't testing character or maturity, it merely tests if the potential Warden is strong enough and smart enough for the job that needs to be done.  Again going back to what Morgan said about an intellectus, because they are immortal there are some dangers they just do not comprehend.  Hence Kemmler certainly passes the test as far as talent and intelligence goes to be Warden, being corrupt and evil is another matter, but the island might not see those last two as a threat to it.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 07:59:38 PM by Mira »

Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #117 on: January 28, 2022, 08:04:18 PM »
My 2 cents- Demonreach only cares if its Warden is capable- magical chops and has the will- to bind dark gods.

Demonreach wants to be used- this was clear from when they interred Thomas.

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #118 on: January 28, 2022, 11:57:36 PM »
Alfred knows the island needs a Warden, ... Harry comes along and does the genius loci, makes him Warden.  Alfred isn't thinking through whether or not Harry would be a good one or a bad one...
Problem, island needs a Warden, skip to the end, Harry.
...
on page 279 he gets to the crux of why the island needs a Warden and why the island to use Morriswalters example is like a two year old being in charge without one.
In other words the island without a proper Warden cannot properly defend itself because it cannot imagine what to look for to prevent it.

Because he is immortal he has a hard time understanding that the island is being threatened.  Like a two year old doesn't understand that a hot stove will burn, he needs an adult to explain it.
...
In other words, without a Warden, the island might know it's about to be attacked, but would have a hard time imagining how it would be attacked or that it is vulnerable to being attacked.

This, I think.

We have seen repeatedly that many of the older beings see the signs of apocalyptic troubles coming.  They are maneuvering and repositioning and making power-plays.

We know Alfred has problems seeing beyond the island, but I suspect the island itself may have some "detect the oncoming apocalypse" measures built in (apocalypses (had to think for a moment to pluralize that'un!) are probably one of the things Merlin explicitly planned-for, as likely to threaten the security of the island).

At that point, having been Warden-less for so long, the island *needs* to fill the role.  Nevermind choosing the "best" candidate... there is exactly one resume in the applicant-pile; if he passes the minimum-qualifications test, even a 2-year-old gets the job at this juncture in time.

[ BTW -- can someone point me to the WoJ about Kemmler having been warden?  I just had an idea... I want to see if it fits with what Jim said... ]
 
[ Also -- do we actually know that "the White Council" (as an organization) actually knows about the island as a prison?  Ley-lines they surely know, and probably the Genus-Loci spirit; but the "prison" aspect, and the automatic "Warden" role that comes with a sanctum-binding?  Maybe only a subset of them know; one of the other things Jim has said is that the White Council is made up of a bunch of secrecy-loving old wizards, and all of them are keeping secrets from one another.  So maybe just LTW knows the island houses a prison; but most of the Council just think of it as a huge Leyline confluence ...?  I mean, seriously:  if you are *THE* Warden... aren't you automatically the Senior Warden?  Maybe that's how it once was, but they've forgotten... ]

[ Also pt.III -- Did Harry ever accept the tutoring offered by LTW, or by River Shoulders?  Almost certainly, RS's people know more about the island than all the White Council combined ... ]

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #119 on: January 29, 2022, 12:22:24 AM »
I'm beginning to hate two year olds.