Harry should have trusted Ramirez

[Basil]

Really, this is all about Merlin because Merlin has a very big Harry problem. 

Harry is individually very powerful -- a top 30 wizard in terms of raw Mega-Joules/Second.  Harry is also very young, which makes that top 30 status concerning long term. 

Harry is also Starborn (which is known to all of the Senior Council). 

Harry is also extremely well-connected with Winter, Summer and the White Court.  He also has unexplained ties to both Heaven and Hell, from Merlin's point of view.  Heaven supports him -- based on his friendly relationship with the Knights; yet, Hell works with him too. 

Harry also is The Warden, a position most recently held by ... Kemmler.  Merlin understood -- though now everyone else does too -- that Harry possesses supernatural nuclear weapons.  Ethniu and the Eye are the least of it, now. 

If that were not enough, ...

Harry has supporters among the actual war-fighters -- the Younger Wardens.  These are exemplified by Ramirez, Chandler, Yuki and Wild Bill (an actual subordinate of Harry).  The commander of the Wardens, Lucio, owes possibly her very life to Harry due to the LaFortier incident (more on this).   

Harry is also connected in the Senior Council as well, much more than a roughly 45 year old wizard should.  He has unwavering support from McCoy and LtW.  Conditional support from Rashid.  Potential support from Liberty and possibly Christos as well.  Meaning that depending on the issue, Harry has more support than Merlin (who can only rely on Mai).  Note well, that the only Senior Council members not sent to the Battle of Chicago are Merlin and Mai.  This is one reason that I think Harry might be wrong about Christos, though there are other reasons.   

By the by, Harry was the BIGGEST winner in that whole LaFortier mess.  LaFortier, Morgan and Peabody die -- none of whom are friends of Harry, really.  Morgan and LaFortier were big supporters of Merlin.  Luccio is saved and owes favors.  Further, Christos may not actually be as anti-Harry (or even anti-Harry at all) despite appearances in Changes.  Harry also appeared to be a Hero to much of the assembled council (that survived).

Then Harry completely ends the War with the Reds, seemingly dying in the immediate aftermath, only to rise again to confront the Fomor. 

So, if you are Merlin, Harry absolutely f-ing terrifies you to your core.  What, therefore, is your reasonable first step? In true British Empire fashion, you secure your power base and divide your enemies.  You can't influence Mab or the White Court or Heaven and Hell.  However, you can drive Harry apart from the supporters he has among your own people. 

You can make Ramirez and the Younger Wardens suspicious of Harry.  You can arrange things to get the Senior Council members that support Harry see how in thrall he is to Mab or the White Court or both.  The fact that McCoy, LtW and Christos -- the most combat focused of the Senior Council got injured and weren't able to vote for Harry was a nice bonus. 

Of course, Merlin also set things up a later win-win with McCoy.  Either McCoy goes rogue and refuses to take out Harry and Merlin wins by getting rid of McCoy.  OR, McCoy take out Harry and Merlin wins by removing such an unpredictable and dangerous person.

[Mira]

Sure but in Cold Case he still has a lot of trust in Molly, far more than he should have if he knew anything about fairy mantles. There should have been more knowledge about that in the white council but nobody tells anyone anything is not just Harry.

So if Carlos trust in Molly is that big at the start of Cold Case his trust in Harry would have been that much as well.

  A thought just occurred to me reading this post, what if the issue isn't trust, but jealousy?  Carlos and Molly have had at least an attraction for one another since they met in White Night.  Carlos also knows that she was Harry's apprentice from that time and the closeness between her family and Harry.  From what happened in Cold Case, it wasn't just Molly who was ignorant of the sexual rules of the Winter Lady, but Carlos as well.  What if out of his ignorance and real physical injuries Carlos assumes that Harry and Molly as Winter Knight and Winter Lady also have a relationship that is sexual in nature?  This could also be planted in his mind while he is vulnerable to the idea.  Could this have sparked jealousy in Carlos which led him to believe Harry capable of all kinds of things?  When he is asking Harry to trust him, it isn't about trust, he wants a confession from Harry.   

[Arjan]

From the text I get the impression that Carlos thinks Harry knows about cold case but he does not. Everyone keeps secrets in the dresdenverse and it leads to problems.

[vincentric]

Yeah, Harry is stuck on the island incommunicado during Cold Case. And the only ones who know all the details are Mab, Molly and Carlos. Of those three, Carlos is the least secretive though Molly is probably not by choice.

[Mira]

From the text I get the impression that Carlos thinks Harry knows about cold case but he does not. Everyone keeps secrets in the dresdenverse and it leads to problems.

  Hence, Carlos keeps asking Harry to "talk to him," when Harry doesn't know what happened between him and Molly, and also doesn't seem to understand there are some things Harry cannot talk about.

[Yuillegan]

From the text I get the impression that Carlos thinks Harry knows about cold case but he does not. Everyone keeps secrets in the dresdenverse and it leads to problems.

I agree, I think Carlos doesn't know that Harry is unaware of the Cold Case incident. Also...I think it's fair to say everyone keeps secrets and it leads to problems, period. In all universes, especially in ours 

Harry also is The Warden, a position most recently held by ... Kemmler. 

Not actually Kemmler most recently. There was a Warden in-between but we don't know who. There may have even been two come to think of it. My guess is Justin was one of the recent Wardens. But he didn't tell anyone. There is a reason he lived in Chicago, after all. Maggie Le Fay is also a possible candidate.

Really, this is all about Merlin because Merlin has a very big Harry problem. 

...

So, if you are Merlin, Harry absolutely f-ing terrifies you to your core.  What, therefore, is your reasonable first step? In true British Empire fashion, you secure your power base and divide your enemies.  You can't influence Mab or the White Court or Heaven and Hell.  However, you can drive Harry apart from the supporters he has among your own people. 

You can make Ramirez and the Younger Wardens suspicious of Harry.  You can arrange things to get the Senior Council members that support Harry see how in thrall he is to Mab or the White Court or both.  The fact that McCoy, LtW and Christos -- the most combat focused of the Senior Council got injured and weren't able to vote for Harry was a nice bonus. 

Of course, Merlin also set things up a later win-win with McCoy.  Either McCoy goes rogue and refuses to take out Harry and Merlin wins by getting rid of McCoy.  OR, McCoy take out Harry and Merlin wins by removing such an unpredictable and dangerous person.

I agree, although I am not so sure that he's afraid of Harry per se. We know the White Council had/has plans for Harry to do with his star born nature. We don't know what they are, but the plans and the fact they were kept from Harry make even relatively manipulative and deceitful beings pause, and make Ebenezar feel ashamed. So I think this is more Arthur Langtry trying to clean up a mess he is responsible for.

I suspect the plans were a "greater good" type of deal, but the poor unfortunate who has to be sacrificed is Harry.

  A thought just occurred to me reading this post, what if the issue isn't trust, but jealousy?  Carlos and Molly have had at least an attraction for one another since they met in White Night.  Carlos also knows that she was Harry's apprentice from that time and the closeness between her family and Harry.  From what happened in Cold Case, it wasn't just Molly who was ignorant of the sexual rules of the Winter Lady, but Carlos as well.  What if out of his ignorance and real physical injuries Carlos assumes that Harry and Molly as Winter Knight and Winter Lady also have a relationship that is sexual in nature?  This could also be planted in his mind while he is vulnerable to the idea.  Could this have sparked jealousy in Carlos which led him to believe Harry capable of all kinds of things?  When he is asking Harry to trust him, it isn't about trust, he wants a confession from Harry.   

Oddly enough, I think you're right (but from the opposite angle). I got an odd impression of jealousy when I read Cold Case, not from Harry but from Jim. It was almost like Carlos wasn't "allowed" to touch Molly, and Molly was to be protected. Or rather, her "purity". The whole scene bothered me. Don't get me wrong, I understood the logic of the scene. I just didn't like what the scene was saying, whether that was the intention of the scene or not.

I suspect when Harry finds out that Molly was prepared to sleep with Carlos, despite what ended up happening, Harry isn't exactly going to be cool with it. Particularly inner Harry.

But your theory stacks up as well. Carlos could well be jealous of Harry's possible relationship with Molly. Whether Harry acknowledges it or not (and think about how long it took for him to acknowledge his feels for Murphy), Harry and Molly have an emotional connection that is more than just familial or friendly. Molly of course is deeply in-love with Harry. But Harry can't get past his own hang-ups and admit to himself how he feels. And while I am deeply glad he never took advantage of their unequal relationship earlier in the series...things are different now. It's actually been pointed out to him more than once. Knowing how Jim works these things, I'd say it will take a few more books before anything happens - in which case I would be worried about Molly's survival.

[morriswalters]

Maybe I'm stupid for thinking this. But this seems to be Cassius death curse writ in giant burning letters.  Die Alone.  Did I miss some women who got out of Harry's orbit in one piece? And Jim has already said that Molly's fate is dark.  And I don't think Harry knows that the Ladies eat men who try to make babies with them. Nobody is  stupid enough to have that discussion with Carlos knowing what she did to him.

[Arjan]

Maybe I'm stupid for thinking this. But this seems to be Cassius death curse writ in giant burning letters.  Die Alone.  Did I miss some women who got out of Harry's orbit in one piece? And Jim has already said that Molly's fate is dark.  And I don't think Harry knows that the Ladies eat men who try to make babies with them. Nobody is  stupid enough to have that discussion with Carlos knowing what she did to him.

Not afterwards but it seems that the white council has little knowledge about the creatures it has to interact with and interacted with for ages. Little shared knowledge anyway.

[Mira]

Not afterwards but it seems that the white council has little knowledge about the creatures it has to interact with and interacted with for ages. Little shared knowledge anyway.

  What speaks to that is Molly, herself, didn't know.  Mab saw fit to tell her all kinds of things about her new role, but left that little fact out.  One has to wonder why, especially in the light that that little bit of knowledge led to the frustration and downfall of her daughter, Maeve.  So I'd say that it isn't a general knowledge thing, however looking objectively at Maeve's downfall, some might guess that this was the case.  Who knows what Mab's motive for not telling Molly was, unless she thought experience would be a better teacher than anything she could say to Molly. 

Carlos is a man of pride and a Warden of the White Council, do you think if he can avoid it he is going to reveal the truth of what really happened to him?  1] He has to openly admit that it was out of his own sexual frustration that he lost control with Molly while still technically on duty.  Yes, I know his virginity has been an open joke in many ways, but outside of his inner circle who really knows about it?  His cultural heritage alone wouldn't let that get out.  Even if the incident itself was over I'd think until he returned to headquarters he'd still be considered on duty.  This would blow his image of being one of the best Wardens of the White Council, maybe even get him removed from the force.  It could even be that someone who knows about it is trying to blackmail Carlos with it to get to Harry.. 2] Carlos would have to openly admit that he was so ignorant of the Winter Court and their Ladies, that he'd leave himself open to what happened to him?  In other words, at that moment he totally forgot what Molly had become, instead treated her like she was still the attractive woman/apprentice to Harry, that he had always been attracted to.   If for no other reason, Carlos himself would do his best that the word wouldn't get out.

[Yuillegan]

Maybe I'm stupid for thinking this. But this seems to be Cassius death curse writ in giant burning letters.  Die Alone.  Did I miss some women who got out of Harry's orbit in one piece? And Jim has already said that Molly's fate is dark.  And I don't think Harry knows that the Ladies eat men who try to make babies with them. Nobody is  stupid enough to have that discussion with Carlos knowing what she did to him.

I would agree, but women died around him and Harry was lonely prior to the death curse. I think it's more to do with Harry's fate, his lifestyle.

Not afterwards but it seems that the white council has little knowledge about the creatures it has to interact with and interacted with for ages. Little shared knowledge anyway.

To quote the Gatekeeper "the Council knows as much as it needs to". But Harry's education was fairly patchy too so I am not sure he is a good indicator of "common" knowledge.

I doubt many apart from the Fae know about the Ladies tendency to kill (or attempt to kill) potential mates. This is dangerous information to be known by others, because a clever person could work out the mantle was defending itself, and therefore believes it is vulnerable. If someone wished to unmake a mantle, to seriously unbalance a Court of Faerie, they could attempt to seduce a Lady. This is the mantle's defence mechanism.

[Arjan]

I would agree, but women died around him and Harry was lonely prior to the death curse. I think it's more to do with Harry's fate, his lifestyle.
To quote the Gatekeeper "the Council knows as much as it needs to". But Harry's education was fairly patchy too so I am not sure he is a good indicator of "common" knowledge.

I doubt many apart from the Fae know about the Ladies tendency to kill (or attempt to kill) potential mates. This is dangerous information to be known by others, because a clever person could work out the mantle was defending itself, and therefore believes it is vulnerable. If someone wished to unmake a mantle, to seriously unbalance a Court of Faerie, they could attempt to seduce a Lady. This is the mantle's defence mechanism.

It is nut just Harry and his lack of knowledge is explainable.

Ebenezer’s knowledge of the white court and the svartalves and the Sidhe courts does not go far either and he is senior council.

They send a party to Marcone and they are not briefed about einherjar?

[Mira]

It is nut just Harry and his lack of knowledge is explainable.

Ebenezer’s knowledge of the white court and the svartalves and the Sidhe courts does not go far either and he is senior council.

They send a party to Marcone and they are not briefed about einherjar?

Or is the White Council, especially the Senior Council a lot like a lot of bureaucratic powerful organizations that have been around way too long without change?  So embedded in the the contemplation of their own belly buttons and petty fears that they cannot see what really is happening beyond their wizard noses?

This is what Margaret Dresden was fighting against from the get go, in my opinion. 

[Yuillegan]

It is nut just Harry and his lack of knowledge is explainable.

Ebenezer’s knowledge of the white court and the svartalves and the Sidhe courts does not go far either and he is senior council.

They send a party to Marcone and they are not briefed about einherjar?

I am not sure what you mean about Ebenezar...are you saying he doesn't know about Einherjar? I don't quite understand what Ebenezar is supposed to know or have known about the Einherjar or the Svartalves or the Sidhe Courts. His knowledge seems fairly good to me, but it isn't like it's been tested much either. Has he been wrong about a few things in regards to those groups or has he seemingly been unaware of what should be basic information?

Also, what party to Marcone? Is this the White Council going to the Peace Talks?

Or is the White Council, especially the Senior Council a lot like a lot of bureaucratic powerful organizations that have been around way too long without change?  So embedded in the the contemplation of their own belly buttons and petty fears that they cannot see what really is happening beyond their wizard noses?

This is what Margaret Dresden was fighting against from the get go, in my opinion. 

Sure, there is definitely some of that going on. However, Jim did point out that Harry has a very limited idea of what the White Council knows or does, particularly when it comes to the Merlin and the other Senior Council members. So we've got a bit of a biased view as we've only seen things from Harry's narrow perspective. Perhaps Jim will give us some insight to how the operate and their knowledge from a better insiders view (e.g. a short story from the Merlin's perspective or something).

[Snark Knight]

I suspect when Harry finds out that Molly was prepared to sleep with Carlos, despite what ended up happening, Harry isn't exactly going to be cool with it. Particularly inner Harry.

I'm not sure he's going to find out at all. But he wanted her to stop pining after him, so her finding an alternative attachment with an age-appropriate good (at the time, anyway) person seems like about the best case scenario. I'd think he'd be more sorry for her tragic predicament.

[Arjan]

I am not sure what you mean about Ebenezar...are you saying he doesn't know about Einherjar? I don't quite understand what Ebenezar is supposed to know or have known about the Einherjar or the Svartalves or the Sidhe Courts. His knowledge seems fairly good to me, but it isn't like it's been tested much either. Has he been wrong about a few things in regards to those groups or has he seemingly been unaware of what should be basic information?

Also, what party to Marcone? Is this the White Council going to the Peace Talks?
Sure, there is definitely some of that going on. However, Jim did point out that Harry has a very limited idea of what the White Council knows or does, particularly when it comes to the Merlin and the other Senior Council members. So we've got a bit of a biased view as we've only seen things from Harry's narrow perspective. Perhaps Jim will give us some insight to how the operate and their knowledge from a better insiders view (e.g. a short story from the Merlin's perspective or something).

White council in peace talks. Ebenezer and Harry explain to the rest of the group what einherjar are when they are already there. They are just not well prepared.

Ebenezer does not know what makes them tick. It is just they are monsters, they eat you, don’t trust them (kill them if you get the chance).