Harry should have trusted Ramirez

[Mira]

Michael, Molly and Thomas are the only people who didn't automatically think "Harry may be a monster or becoming a monster" when he returned.  However, Molly's judgement was warped before she became one of the fae (mostly by being around Lea) and Thomas notices a new predatory behavior being demonstrated by Harry; but Thomas thinks of himself as a monster, so he doesn't make any negative judgements about Harry.  Thomas just warns Harry that he needs to learn to control what's going on inside of him.  Of course, Michael doesn't prejudge Harry because he's Michael, but also because Harry came to him looking for help.  Oh yea, there's Mac, but is Mac really human?

Mac isn't,but that is beside the point,I actually think the more interesting,and maybe important question is why do Michael and Mac,oh and throw Sanya in there as well, trust him? Shiro was willing to die horribly in his place and trust him with the custody of a Holy Sword, Michael turned his over as well.  It was Michael who convinced Harry he wasn't, when Harry was beginning to believe everyone else was right, that he was a monster.  Rashid is into trust but verify, but mostly he trusts Harry.  Listen's to Wind also seems to trust Harry, Eb is his grandfather, I also think Eb might be a bit clueless about him as well. So is it inside information or what?

[SerScot]

The moderator answered it. 🤷‍♀️ Rank has its privileges.

(I get it, though. It's why I rarely visit my family's Facebook group. Avoiding it gets me in less trouble than participating in it would...)

I hear you. 

[Mira]

The moderator answered it. 🤷‍♀️ Rank has its privileges.

(I get it, though. It's why I rarely visit my family's Facebook group. Avoiding it gets me in less trouble than participating in it would...)

Yeah,  but that doesn't always bring the same satisfaction.. But we take what we can get, it's justice..

[Avernite]

Mac isn't,but that is beside the point,I actually think the more interesting,and maybe important question is why do Michael and Mac,oh and throw Sanya in there as well, trust him? Shiro was willing to die horribly in his place and trust him with the custody of a Holy Sword, Michael turned his over as well.  It was Michael who convinced Harry he wasn't, when Harry was beginning to believe everyone else was right, that he was a monster.  Rashid is into trust but verify, but mostly he trusts Harry.  Listen's to Wind also seems to trust Harry, Eb is his grandfather, I also think Eb might be a bit clueless about him as well. So is it inside information or what?

Well. I don't know if it is Inside Information, anymore, but there certainly was back when Harry met Shiro and Sanya - they came to stop him from interfering because he'd die. Harry, stupid/brave/noble self-sacrificer that he is, stepped in to protect them. That move, risking himself to save others, is what made his reputation - and what got him Swords (next to of course the following period where he kept being nobly self-sacrificing).

Ah, you might say, what of Winter? But Michael knows more than just this - he knows that Harry had a Denarian in his head and still never cracked.
What temptation an icy queen, when he has resisted a temptress who was there when the first mortal drew the first breath? Michael is not overly concerned, and rightly so; but very few other people know Harry has resisted the strongest temptation the world has to offer.

[Mira]

  The question remains, should Harry have trusted Carlos?  People have given all kinds of reasons as to why Harry shouldn't be trusted.  But the question remains, why should Harry trust Carlos? After the tracking device?  Carlos tells him to talk to him.. But about what?  Carlos doesn't ask Harry anything specific, just to talk, that's what police do when they want an admission of some kind. Nor does Carlos give Harry any information as to who is behind all of this.. So should Harry trust Carlos?  Hell no..

[morriswalters]

To get trust you have to give it and that's something Harry has almost  never done.  You don't buy it on street corners with cheap coins.  You buy it by  trusting when trusting can cost you. Jim over the course of the books created one character that Harry came to trust.  Murphy.  And Jim slammed the door on that.

[Mira]

To get trust you have to give it and that's something Harry has almost  never done.  You don't buy it on street corners with cheap coins.  You buy it by  trusting when trusting can cost you. Jim over the course of the books created one character that Harry came to trust.  Murphy.  And Jim slammed the door on that.

Not exactly true, Harry trust Michael, Sanya, Butters, [even when Butters didn't trust him for a while] Thomas, Mac, Eb, sort of, Listens to Wind, River Shoulders, and up until he put a fricking tracking device on him secretly, Carlos.  As for Murphy, yes, he trusted her, but she didn't always trust him.

[morriswalters]

Your statement is unsupported by the books.  He's concealed almost everything from everybody at one time or another. Including famously, himself.  He is the poster boy of trust issues.

[vincentric]

Don't confuse secrecy with distrust.

Harry has kept things from people for various reasons. He kept things from Murphy to keep her out of the notice of the magical community and because some knowledge would have put her into ethical dilemmas and/or greater danger. That also how he's treated Molly, Butters and the Alphas. But when the chips were down, he's come clean with all of them. The only thing he's ever kept from Michael was his initial acquisition of Lasciel's Coin. These are members of his intimate family and friends and it includes Thomas and Sanya.

Any ally involved with the magical world gets all the information that is safe for them to know when they're working with him.

But Carlos and the other Wardens are not in his intimate circle. They are trusted coworkers and foxhole buddies. They relax together after battles and have been through some stuff but they don't tell each other everything. This group holds Eb, Listens, River, Anastacia, Rashid and a few others.

Carlo's questioning stepped from the coworker/buddy circle to the family/intimate confidante level. Harry wouldn't let him that close for good and bad reasons.  In that situation, Harry may have trusted Carlos, he couldn't trust Warden Ramirez.

[ZhonLord]

I'd also like to point out that this may not entirely have been of Harry's own free will.  "Die alone".  The necromancer's death curse that he's been living under.  The full phrase that this is referring to is "You're going to die alone", a phrase often aimed at people who inevitably push others away, find themselves ostracized or outcast, and generally act in ways that cause other people to not associate with them or not WANT to associate with them.

Think about it.  When Murphy died, it was noted that Harry was already treating her like she was dead or utterly incapacitated due to her injury - even though she was legitimately able to get back up to 80% (which is still better than Butters had when he first helped save the world).  When he saw Butters after becoming the Winter Knight, he didn't stop to say hi and chat with friends, he paid his debt to Bob and got ready to go again - something Butters called him out on. 

It may have even had influence on why that Fallen Angel was able to manipulate Harry so easily into choosing to BE the Winter Knight in the first place, and the subsequent actions which SEVERELY harmed Molly's sanity and put her on the path towards becoming the Winter Maiden - forever keeping her from seeking Harry's embrace as she tried to do previously.

Death curses are powerful.  They're subtle.  They're insidious.  Is it really that much of a stretch to think that it nudged Harry in the direction of keeping Ramirez out of it for his own safety, even though such an act basically treats Ramirez as a child who's not big/capable enough to handle himself?

[Arjan]

Harry's actions were not the deciding factor for Carlos. If Molly had handled Carlos better it would have been different. But she could not at that moment.

[morriswalters]

Carlos first expresses doubts about Harry at the end of White Knight.

I wanted to spit something hostile and venomous and well deserved. I toned myself down to saying, "Gee. A Warden doesn't trust me. That's a switch."

Ramirez blinked at me. "What?"

"Don't worry about it. I'm used to it," I said. "I had Morgan sticking his nose into every corner of my existence for my entire adult life."

Ramirez stared at me for a second. Then he let out a weak snort and said, "All hail the drama queen. Harry…" He shook his head. "I'm talking about you not trusting me, man."

This is the second dance around this subject. It happens with almost every character.  When he picks up the coin he hides it from Michael. Billy has to call him on it after the Skin Walker eats one of his pack.  And so on.

[Arjan]

Sure but in Cold Case he still has a lot of trust in Molly, far more than he should have if he knew anything about fairy mantles. There should have been more knowledge about that in the white council but nobody tells anyone anything is not just Harry.

So if Carlos trust in Molly is that big at the start of Cold Case his trust in Harry would have been that much as well.

[forumghost]

Carlos first expresses doubts about Harry at the end of White Knight.This is the second dance around this subject. It happens with almost every character.  When he picks up the coin he hides it from Michael. Billy has to call him on it after the Skin Walker eats one of his pack.  And so on.

Yeah, very much this. Harry had been lying/concealing information/going behind the backs of all of his friends for years at this point.

Except that unlike with Murphy or Billy, or Butters, when his relationship with Carlos reached a crisis point, Harry refused to admit his fault and instead doubled down on the righteous indignation and "How DARE you doubt me, no matter how blatantly shady I act" because Carlos is a Wizard of the White Council, and Harry refuses to grow past the frightened, angry 16 year old they caught where the White Council is concerned.

[morriswalters]

This is the default in the Dresdenverse.  Secrets.  From everybody.  Not only does the left hand not know what the right is doing, it won't even admit to the existence of the right. Jim grew up with the X Files and it shows.  So saying that Harry should have trusted Carlos is trite.  He likes Carlos but he has never trusted him.  Had he, Carlos would have known about Thomas. Who is the root source of the conflict for reasons Jim has hammered out over and over again.  It's become tiresome.