Author Topic: Harry should have trusted Ramirez  (Read 44598 times)

Offline Xamion

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2021, 12:47:38 PM »
And I repeat, the White Court are part of the Accords like the White Council, they are supposed to be allies.

Slight nitpick here, but IIRC, pre-Battle Ground's ending, the Accords have been strictly a mutual non-aggression pact combined with a human masquerade pact. Nothing about an NAP says or implies, that the signatories are in fact actual true allies. All participants were actively spying on and covertly sabotaging each other in various ways even prior to the outright war, that had erupted between Red Court and White Council, in the story prior.

Therefore Carlos' actions, as a member of the White Council, are justified from that perspective, despite clearly showing, that he personally trusted Harry less than his WC peers and/or superiors.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2021, 01:06:00 PM »
Maybe earlier but in peace talks it was already far too late.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2021, 03:19:54 PM »
Where is she then?  Did Harry leave her at the estate?  He took her with him, I believe.

I forget the details, but maybe she stayed in the car? It would have gone better if she had been part of the conversation on the road. Not having Harry's weirdly old-fashioned hangups, she probably would have been quite willing to defuse the confrontation by telling Carlos she and Harry were a couple.

Of course, Carlos knowing that would have spoiled the deception play that he and Lara were boinking while they were actually busting Thomas out of the cells.

Hard to say exactly what else Harry should have trusted Carlos with earlier, though. Maybe a bit of background info on Winter's purpose and the fact that the beastly exercise regimen is to keep the mantle tired enough that Harry retains executive control of his own actions, but much more than that is risky. Carlos has either been mentally compromised by someone (Which I don't like, it cheapens the conflict between them) or convinced by someone else he trusts who is antagonistic to Harry, probably using what Molly did to him, that he's gone monster. Whatever he shares is not going to be kept in confidence either way, so it can't be anything truly damaging.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2021, 06:05:18 PM »
She wasn't there at all.

Harry made 2 trips to Chateau Wraith in PT.

The first was alone where he talks and spars with Lara. After this, he encounters Ramirez and crew.

Murphy is with him the second trip. They ditch tails, talk to Grey and lay out the plan with Lara after Murphy and Freydis "discuss" her injuries. Carlos is nowhere near them on this trip.

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2021, 06:36:21 PM »


  A couple of points...
Quote

Hard to say exactly what else Harry should have trusted Carlos with earlier, though. Maybe a bit of background info on Winter's purpose and the fact that the beastly exercise regimen is to keep the mantle tired enough that Harry retains executive control of his own actions, but much more than that is risky. Carlos has either been mentally compromised by someone (Which I don't like, it cheapens the conflict between them) or convinced by someone else he trusts who is antagonistic to Harry, probably using what Molly did to him, that he's gone monster. Whatever he shares is not going to be kept in confidence either way, so it can't be anything truly damaging.
That is point number one, it may cheapen the story, but someone has convinced Carlos that Harry is guilty of something as of the first chapter of Peace Talks, that is when he put that tracker on Harry secretly.  You don't do that ethically unless you, yourself question what Harry is up to.  Carlos had been down too many roads with Harry to do that to him, not question it or warn Harry.. That is a total stab in the back!
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Murphy is with him the second trip. They ditch tails, talk to Grey and lay out the plan with Lara after Murphy and Freydis "discuss" her injuries. Carlos is nowhere near them on this trip.

But Harry and Murphy had sex before any of that went down, but after the tracker was put on him... There was no evidence previously that Harry and Lara were having trysts together before, so the point of the sex scan was to throw Harry off his game.  Carlos and his fellow Wardens were treating Harry like a suspect from the get go..  As Harry said, "you are treating me like I might have done something.."  When Carlos asks Harry to "talk to him," he is asking Harry to justify his actions, and then report back.  Once Harry realized he was no longer part of the "we" but considered outside the White Council.. He didn't trust anyone.
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Therefore Carlos' actions, as a member of the White Council, are justified from that perspective, despite clearly showing, that he personally trusted Harry less than his WC peers and/or superiors.

Yet in chapter one of Peace Talks, Carlos had no problem conducting Council business regarding security in front of Thomas, even though Thomas did offer to leave.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2021, 01:31:15 AM »
You do see the relationship between Rudolph the Dumb and Carlos, don't you?  They are both members of Infernal Affairs. It should be easy to see why cops don't like them.  It also should be easy to see why they are needed.

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2021, 04:06:36 AM »
You do see the relationship between Rudolph the Dumb and Carlos, don't you?  They are both members of Infernal Affairs. It should be easy to see why cops don't like them.  It also should be easy to see why they are needed.

 Oh yes, but the likes of Rudolph only become dangerous when they suffer from severe paranoia. In Carlos's case, he had suffered grievously at the hands of the Winter Lady both physically and mentally, in his mind it made anyone associated with Winter, suspect.  So even though he has known Harry for years, fought and suffered with him, he now finds it hard to give him the benefit of a doubt.  Harry's enemies with in the Council saw this change and took full advantage of it.

Offline SerScot

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2021, 11:48:40 AM »
Don't you see Carlos Biden and Harry voted Trump

Reread the precepts.  Edit your post.  No politics.

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Yeah… I’d really like to respond given that this post opened the door…
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2021, 01:29:20 PM »
Yeah… I’d really like to respond given that this post opened the door…
Keeping myself under control….  ;)

I think I just react to some idiots on Facebook to get it out of my system.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2021, 06:24:02 PM »
Keeping myself under control….  ;)

I think I just react to some idiots on Facebook to get it out of my system.

The rules are the rules.. We gotta live by them even though it can be frustrating at times.. :o

Offline Arjan

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2021, 08:38:22 PM »
The rules are the rules.. We gotta live by them even though it can be frustrating at times.. :o
These rules are actually quite reasonable given the purpose of this group.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2021, 11:16:49 PM »
These rules are actually quite reasonable given the purpose of this group.

I didn't say they weren't reasonable.. However I also understand the desire to want to punch back sometimes, that's the frustrating bit..  ::)  Usually the moderators take care things pretty well, and for the most part this is one of the most civil sites I visit.

Offline SerScot

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2021, 01:38:10 AM »
I didn't say they weren't reasonable.. However I also understand the desire to want to punch back sometimes, that's the frustrating bit..  ::)  Usually the moderators take care things pretty well, and for the most part this is one of the most civil sites I visit.

Understood.  I simply dislike leaving comments like that unanswered.
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline CrusherJen

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2021, 08:16:47 AM »
Understood.  I simply dislike leaving comments like that unanswered.

The moderator answered it. 🤷‍♀️ Rank has its privileges.

(I get it, though. It's why I rarely visit my family's Facebook group. Avoiding it gets me in less trouble than participating in it would...)
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Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2021, 08:32:44 AM »
(Yes, I understand why some people would have liked to respond to a certain post but, let's not feed the trolls.)  Instead, let's get this discussion back on track by taking it in a new direction.  I think there have been some good points on both sides of this discussion.  However, I come down in a slightly different place.  I think Harry has a weakness; well more than one, but in this case he has an inability to see himself as others see him.  OK, doing that is a difficult thing for many people; maybe most people, to do.  However, in this case Harry has had many, many clues; which if he had paid attention to them, might have allowed him to be proactive and at least attempt to get ahead of the problem he had with Ramirez and company in Peace Talks. (I know, it's confusing so far, just go with me a little further and it should become clear or somewhat clear.)

What are the clues Harry has been ignoring or not paying enough attention to?  Look at the constant pattern of suspicion Harry has faced since he seemingly returned from the dead as the new Winter Knight.  Sarissa didn't trust him.  Bob didn't trust him.  Murphy didn't fully trust him; at least not initially.  Fix didn't trust him.  Lily didn't trust him; again, at least not at first.  Butters didn't trust Harry's story about being being dead and later he didn't trust Harry at all.  With the exception of Lily who was more worried about the possible infection from Nemesis, the rest of those characters were afraid that Mab had changed Harry for the worse.  However, it doesn't end there.  Harry knows that whenever he is seen with Thomas or Lara Raith, it's not a good look.  The reputation of the White Court of vampires brings some taint to whoever would willingly associate with them.  Most people would have realized they had a problem and needed to become proactive in addressing it, but not Harry.  He shouldn't have been surprised that at least some of the younger wardens might be concerned, and might even be worried that he was no longer the Harry Dresden they used to know. 

Michael, Molly and Thomas are the only people who didn't automatically think "Harry may be a monster or becoming a monster" when he returned.  However, Molly's judgement was warped before she became one of the fae (mostly by being around Lea) and Thomas notices a new predatory behavior being demonstrated by Harry; but Thomas thinks of himself as a monster, so he doesn't make any negative judgements about Harry.  Thomas just warns Harry that he needs to learn to control what's going on inside of him.  Of course, Michael doesn't prejudge Harry because he's Michael, but also because Harry came to him looking for help.  Oh yea, there's Mac, but is Mac really human?

I've actually thought through why Harry lacks this self-awareness, but why go there.  I'm not sure how deeply Jim thought it through when he created Harry.  In any case, I think Harry had exactly one opportunity to attempt to reach out to Carlos Ramirez before everything went to hell.  That opportunity was right at the beginning of the novel when Warden Ramirez showed up on the beach where Harry and Thomas were running together.  (Caveat, I haven't reread Peace Talks or Battle Ground.  To be honest, as time passes the less I like either of them, though there are parts of them I like.) 

Harry notices that Carlos is paying attention to the ridiculous amount of weight he is working out with.  That was the time for Harry to (attempt) to reassure an old friend that he was still the same person, more or less.  Once it was demonstrated to Harry; by the road block and tracking devise, that even his old friends no longer trusted him, Harry wasn't going to meet them halfway or compromise with them in any way.  It's not in Harry's nature to react well to threats.  As far as being associated with the White Court, it would have also been a good idea if Harry had come up with a good reason why he should be seen with Thomas by a member of the White Council.  He's had plenty of time to realize that might be a good idea, but Harry isn't very good at lying, so he hasn't even tried to think of a good excuse.

At the scene on the beach, I don't think it would have been unreasonable for Harry to say something along these lines: "Carlos, I know you must be wondering if I'm still the same person I used to be.  I've had a lot of people who have been worried about exactly the same thing."  I don't know what Harry would have said after that, other than it would have had to have been very short, and probably included a promise to sit down and talk in more detail later.  Would such a statement made a difference?  I don't know, but at least Harry wouldn't have come off as clueless as he did when the Wardens stopped him after his meeting with Lara.

As far the White Court issue goes, that is a much more problematic issue for Harry to deal with.  I suppose Harry could have said something like, "Baron Marcone, the White Court and a group of vigilantes have created a temporary alliance against the Fomor here in Chicago.  (Implying Harry is the primary vigilante in question.) Sometimes this requires discussions and negotiations between allies."  While it wouldn't have been a lie, it's way more devious than Harry usually is with friends.  So even though I think it would have been a good idea, it would have been out of character for Harry to do this.  I suppose Harry might have told Carlos that Captain Luccio knows why he meets with Thomas Raith, but that would have become very complicated, very quickly.  Harry might have had to give Ramirez a letter to take to Luccio to confirm what he said was true and hope Captain Luccio wouldn't decide that now was a good time to be concerned enough to reveal the entire truth to Ramirez and the rest of the White Council.
       
I think Harry had one other opportunity to reach out to Ramirez.  I've written about this idea before in another thread.  After Warden Ramirez read Harry the demands from the White Council and Harry responded, there might have been an opportunity for Harry to reach out to Carlos as an individual.  Harry might said something like this: "Warden Ramirez! You wanted to know about secrets I've been keeping.  OK then, come closer and put a veil or other spell over us so no one else can hear this.  Remember how I exposed Wizard Peabody as a traitor at Morgan's trial?  There's something I didn't tell the White Council at that trial.  Peabody wasn't alone when he attacked the Senior Council members on that island and killed at least one warden.  I know that for a fact.  But no, I don't know who the other person is, but there is another traitor on the White Council.  Now ask yourself, who on the Council are you going to report this information to?  Because, if you tell the wrong person you may be signing your own death warrant.  Watch your back.  And that is the least dangerous secret I know."  Perhaps telling Ramirez something like that might pay future dividends.  Of course, that assumes Ramirez would believe anything Harry said at that point.     



 



« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 09:18:57 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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