Author Topic: Harry should have trusted Ramirez  (Read 44561 times)

Offline SerScot

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Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: November 30, 2021, 11:23:24 PM »
Just finished my current re-read.  It pains me that Harry didn’t bring Ramirez into his confidence.  Ramirez has never ratted Harry out and always had Harry’s back when he asked.  Harry should have trusted him.  He knew Ramirez could have snagged Molly, but didn’t.  He knew Ramirez shared his concerns about the Black Council. 

Harry was wrong.  He should have trusted Ramirez.  To quote Harry’s series, “Now… matters are worse.”
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2021, 12:36:17 AM »
Harry didn’t want to drag him into his woes like he did Molly, and like he tried to avoid with Butters.

Harry really isn’t very good for other people.

Offline SerScot

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2021, 12:40:06 AM »
Harry didn’t want to drag him into his woes like he did Molly, and like he tried to avoid with Butters.

Harry really isn’t very good for other people.

Harry deliberately kept Ramirez in the dark and it appears to have cost him Ramirez’s friendship.  That was foolish.
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2021, 01:04:38 AM »
Harry didn’t want to drag him into his woes like he did Molly, and like he tried to avoid with Butters.

Harry really isn’t very good for other people.

The decision this time wasn't for Ramirez' benefit. Telling Ramirez was a huge personal risk because it would have jeopardized the chance of saving Thomas. Also, failing to save Thomas would have been a failure in his obligations to honor Winter's promise to Lara.

Offline b4utoo

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2021, 02:42:57 AM »
No. Rameriz is a friend. Not yet family. Murph is family

Offline forumghost

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2021, 04:47:14 AM »
Harry is an idiot who apparently thought that his only options were "Tell Ramirez everything" or "Tell him nothing in the most antagonistic way possible" with no possible in between.

It also didn't hurt that the Wardens were kinda right not to trust him, seeing as how he was in fact in the middle of conspiring with Lara to disrupt a Peace Conference for selfish reasons.

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2021, 05:22:33 AM »
Harry is an idiot who apparently thought that his only options were "Tell Ramirez everything" or "Tell him nothing in the most antagonistic way possible" with no possible in between.

It also didn't hurt that the Wardens were kinda right not to trust him, seeing as how he was in fact in the middle of conspiring with Lara to disrupt a Peace Conference for selfish reasons.

  Who was trusting whom?  First thing Carlos puts on Harry is a tracking device without telling him.
Would you have trusted someone who was supposedly your friend who did that?  I don't think so.  Remember this was before the assassination attempt even happened.  So as a friend, why didn't Carlos come clean with Harry on the beach?  No, though I wouldn't be shocked if it were Eb that ordered the tracking device.. But once that was done, hell no, Harry wasn't going to trust Carlos.

Would it have mattered one way or the other if Harry had told Carlos everything?  Before the talks, Harry didn't know anything beyond what had happened... Again, first thing Carlos does when they catch up to Harry and Murphy after the visit to Lara is have Harry scanned for recent sexual encounters without his permission and believing the worst when it is found out that he had had recent sex.. You going to "trust" this guy who then claims to be your friend?  I don't think so.. I think Harry would have been a idiot if he had told Carlos, "everything."


Offline Ed0517

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2021, 06:44:27 AM »
i don't see Eb ordering the tracking. He would not work so blatantly against Harry.

But I COULD see him knowing and not  alerting Harry.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2021, 08:55:58 AM »
The reality is the relationship breakdown had started long ago. As much as Ramirez once looked up to Harry, once he worked with him and developed a relationship with him he became painfully aware of Harry's flaws and failings. As they say, never meet your heroes.

The catalyst that broke the friendship might have been the deaths of Yoshimo and Wild Bill (and possibly Chandler). But really it was already fairly damaged well before then. Trust had been lost on both sides for a long time, they had been moving in different directions for some time now, and it's unsurprising really they are on a collision course.

Like all relationship issues, it never comes out of nowhere and it's never just one thing (even if one or both parties might think that). It's always a series of things, there are always things that have been building up.

I don't know that Harry "should" have trusted Ramirez during the events of Peace Talks (and of course Battle Ground) considering the relationship breakdown by this point. Work would have needed to be done much earlier to avert the events that followed and subsequent collapse of trust. But perhaps Harry should have tried to mend the relationship and put more effort in years ago, certainly prior to the events of Changes. After that...there wasn't much time for Dresden to work on any relationships. Then again, it's hard to say how much effort Ramirez put in to earn that trust either. We only see Harry's perspective and that tends to skew things.

Tactically, it might have been wiser to let Ramirez on a few things (especially with the benefit of hindsight), but that being said Harry clearly saw Ramirez was working against him already by this point. It's like giving a cop the information to sabotage your efforts in trying to do some good, even if it isn't how they like it, and then they arrest you or whatever. Harry made probably the best choice he could with the available information at the time. Doesn't mean it was the ultimate best choice but Harry is neither omniscient or infallible, hardly even close.

Don't forget, Ramirez could have chosen to trust Harry some more too. There are consequences to that as well.
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Offline forumghost

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2021, 08:59:01 AM »
  Who was trusting whom?  First thing Carlos puts on Harry is a tracking device without telling him.
Would you have trusted someone who was supposedly your friend who did that?  I don't think so.  Remember this was before the assassination attempt even happened.  So as a friend, why didn't Carlos come clean with Harry on the beach?  No, though I wouldn't be shocked if it were Eb that ordered the tracking device.. But once that was done, hell no, Harry wasn't going to trust Carlos.

Would it have mattered one way or the other if Harry had told Carlos everything?  Before the talks, Harry didn't know anything beyond what had happened... Again, first thing Carlos does when they catch up to Harry and Murphy after the visit to Lara is have Harry scanned for recent sexual encounters without his permission and believing the worst when it is found out that he had had recent sex.. You going to "trust" this guy who then claims to be your friend?  I don't think so.. I think Harry would have been a idiot if he had told Carlos, "everything."

I agree he would've been a idiot to tell Carlos everything. But he could have said something.

Instead, when his friends go "Yo Dres we're kinda worried that you've been enthralled by a Succubus Queen can you give us some reassurance here"... Harry grounds his staff and prepared for combat.

He did worse then nothing: he provided evidence in favour of him being controlled.

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2021, 11:55:08 AM »


  What could he have said though?  The point is, that tracking device was secretly placed on Harry
beforeanything went down, by his friend, Carlos.  That tossed any trust out the window.  If you believe that nothing you are about to say will be believed or worse used against you, you keep your mouth shut.  That is why when you are arrested and read your rights one of them is "the right to remain silent."  Why?  Because it can, and will be used against you.. It is also why it is a good idea not to say anything until a lawyer is present..  No, someone talked Carlos into putting that device on Harry, you really think he'd buy anything Harry said?

Offline b4utoo

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2021, 12:34:27 PM »
Sorry I ain't saying shit if someone acted against me first lol
And since when telling someone partial story is acceptable

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2021, 04:13:18 PM »
Sorry I ain't saying shit if someone acted against me first lol
And since when telling someone partial story is acceptable

Exactly, and Carlos acted against Harry first, that is why when they stopped him on the way back from Lara's place Harry was pissed.  Cap that off with a sex scan without his permission and implying all kinds of things, Harry really would have been stupid to trust Carlos from that point.  And yes, Harry perhaps could have handled it better, but he was really emotionally upset about Thomas.. Also even if he did "trust" Carlos enough to talk to him, as you say, Harry didn't even have a partial story for him, Harry didn't know much more about the assassination attempt than Carlos.. But that is only part of the story from Carlos as well, why the tracking device?  What Carlos wanted from Harry occurred before the assassination attempt, when he attached the tracking device, but on the beach he never asked Harry to talk to him.. He didn't even ask any questions so Harry could talk to him.. As in "about what?"  And it went down pretty much the same way on the road back from Lara's place.  "Talk to me.."  "About what? How much kitty litter Mister goes through?"

Offline toodeep

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2021, 06:45:09 PM »
Harry had 4 options as I see it:
1.  Say nothing.  This is what he chose
2.  Say I have to help Thomas, will you help? I can't explain anything about why
3.  Say I have to help Thomas, will you help? I need to do it for Winter Knight reasons.
4.  Say I have to help Thomas, will you help? He's my brother.

Considering they were worried about him being bent up and not being himself, 2 wouldn't have worked.  They don't understand Winter the way Harry does, 3 would have made them trust him even less.  4 is just waaaay too dangerous to share.  Harry made the right choice.

Harry should take him to the outer gates and explain to him what's really in play and Winter's role in it.  That might make Carlos less worried about Harry being mind bent.  There is a really serious reason for Winter to be playing hardball that all reality should be supporting.  As a matter of fact, Harry should take Butters, Fix, and maybe even Goodman or anyone else he plans to need to depend on that he can get on that little "field Trip"  I think that would make a great short story in 12 months or whatever the new book is going to be.  There are some people Harry really needs trusting him just a little more than they are right now and cluing them into the big picture would help with that.

Offline b4utoo

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Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2021, 08:25:20 PM »
You don't want to do a field trip you don't want to let people know about the outer Gates because that's just another venue the bad guys to attack. Not everybody is an outsider they might have different reasons to f*** s*** up