Author Topic: Harry should have trusted Ramirez  (Read 44537 times)

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #180 on: February 08, 2022, 04:17:42 PM »
The Kringle Mantle, without vassalage gives Marcone exactly what he wants, without any ties, immortality and power, plus it keeps him on the good side of the Accorded Nations, where he is trying very very hard to be Luxembourg in the EU. Luxembourg is tiny, has disproportionate power and wealth and is Europe’s haven for dodgy cash.

The weak points with the Denarians is the human hosts, these can be overcome, Harry had a dozen in the bag once. Mab is not in the business of hunting Denarians, and Nicky owed her a favour, using that Favour was a foolhardy move, nothing now stands in her way against him now should he get in her way.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #181 on: February 08, 2022, 05:40:12 PM »
What would she do with the coin if she had it? Show me anything that indicates it can be destroyed. or the Fallen within it attacked in any fashion.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #182 on: February 08, 2022, 05:52:51 PM »
What would she do with the coin if she had it? Show me anything that indicates it can be destroyed. or the Fallen within it attacked in any fashion.
She can only keep it out of circulation for some time. But it represents power. She might be able to use it as a bargaining chip in some way.

WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline vincentric

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 581
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #183 on: February 08, 2022, 06:22:49 PM »
What would she do with the coin if she had it? Show me anything that indicates it can be destroyed. or the Fallen within it attacked in any fashion.

She could schedule some time for her direct vassal, the Winter Knight to put it at the bottom level of Demonreach and use all her power to aid in the binding. If Bob could hold the circle for a Titan, Mab can surely hold a Fallen.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24350
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #184 on: February 08, 2022, 07:44:09 PM »
She could schedule some time for her direct vassal, the Winter Knight to put it at the bottom level of Demonreach and use all her power to aid in the binding. If Bob could hold the circle for a Titan, Mab can surely hold a Fallen.

She doesn't have to do that, as long as Harry or anyone else directly touches the coin, it can be locked away in a cell in maximum security on Demonreach.  I don't think binding of any kind is needed.  However having said that, more information is needed as to how the coins that were sent to the Vatican got back in circulation again.

Quote
She can only keep it out of circulation for some time. But it represents power. She might be able to use it as a bargaining chip in some way.
Only if she was pulling a double cross of come kind, she cannot use it to bargain with, the last thing she wants is for Namshiel to be loose on the world once again.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #185 on: February 08, 2022, 10:25:36 PM »
What would she do with the coin if she had it? Show me anything that indicates it can be destroyed. or the Fallen within it attacked in any fashion.

Bait for Nicodemus. Just like the Spear was.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #186 on: February 09, 2022, 03:05:24 AM »
She doesn't have to do that, as long as Harry or anyone else directly touches the coin, it can be locked away in a cell in maximum security on Demonreach.  I don't think binding of any kind is needed.  However having said that, more information is needed as to how the coins that were sent to the Vatican got back in circulation again.
IMDb not think that is a big mystery. Somebody got corrupted.
Quote
Only if she was pulling a double cross of come kind, she cannot use it to bargain with, the last thing she wants is for Namshiel to be loose on the world once again.
She knows the coin will get into circulation sooner or later, that is how they work. Also I suspect there are certain rules and understandings about the interaction between heaven/hell and the Sidhe and in if Namshiel himself (not his host) oversteps those Mab will have more options.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #187 on: February 09, 2022, 12:05:59 PM »
IMDb not think that is a big mystery. Somebody got corrupted.She knows the coin will get into circulation sooner or later, that is how they work. Also I suspect there are certain rules and understandings about the interaction between heaven/hell and the Sidhe and in if Namshiel himself (not his host) oversteps those Mab will have more options.

I blame a suspicious but nondescript vending machine repairman at the Vatican of medium height wearing a skinny grey tie.

I suspect very few are immune to the call of the coins to be set free, the extremely strong willed and in the know, like Harry and  only the Knights and the genuine clerics, and they are few and far between.

Offline Basil

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #188 on: March 31, 2022, 02:32:13 AM »
Been awhile since I checked in on this, but there are some interesting points.

(1)  LaFortier as the most recent Warden.

I really like this idea as it solves -- at least in my mind -- some nagging issues from Turn Coat.  To what's been stated above, let me add one tiny additional assumption.  Assume for the sake of argument that the existence and nature of "The Warden" is restricted information known only to the Senior Council members (and maybe not even them).  There is some support from Rashid on this.

First, splitting the White Council into factions is simply not the same kind of stakes that earlier and later books establish.  While no law requires every Dresden File to have all creation as the stakes, a possible fracturing of the White Council is just not that significant.  Sure, the Wizards think that they are super important and that the Senior Council is the most important of all; however, in reality they are just one player in the Great Game and a fairly downscale retail outfit when compared to Heaven, Hell, Winter, Summer and even some of the more scuffed powers like the Fomor, Asgard and Hades. 

If the White Council split, would it really matter that much?  Harry and McCoy seem to think so, but I doubt that this is really true. 

Second, if splitting the White Council is the goal, why not kill the Merlin instead?  If you wanna see some infighting and jockeying for power, just wait for that guy to ride the Night-train to the Big Adios.  Why not Mai? She seems less capable of defending herself in a physical confrontation than LaFortier.  If you can program Lucio to kill La Fortier, you can program her to attack anyone. 

Third, Christos has been a disappointment as a Black Council suspect.  Harry and McCoy were initially convinced that he was, but in the subsequent years, I haven't seen any real evidence that he's actually bad -- he's just a self-important jackass (like all the others).  Indeed, I don't think we have any real evidence that he's actually anti-Harry.  Crucially, his injuries (badly burned) likely prevented him from voting on expelling Dresden.  (I think only Merlin, Mai and maybe Liberty cast votes).

Given this, just opening a Senior Council seat seems like it doesn't quite fit.  On the other hand, given ALL of the subsequent events, clearing a Warden out of Demonreach and then trying very hard to get rid of the "accidental" replacement or suborn him makes sense.  It also makes sense that the Senior Council didn't immediately appoint a successor (assuming they can) and didn't check up on the place.  They are so self-centered they assumed that the LaFortier Affair was about his Council Seat and not his Night Job.  No one but the Senior Council knew that LaFortier was the Warden, after all, at least in their minds. 

(2) Harry did not "stumble" on the Job

I don't think Harry accidentally stumbled on to the Job as Warden.  He was carefully stage-managed into the job by none other than Uriel.  In fact, recall that Harry could not have been the Warden without Soulfire.  I'm sure an older, more skilled wizard could have managed without Soulfire, Soulfire was just Harry's cheat code to getting that Job a hundred years too young.

(3)  Harry is the Adult, not the Toddler

While I like the toddler with a gun metaphor, in this metaphor Demonreach is the toddler, not Harry.  Demonreach is sort of a super-natural Bam-Bam from the Flintstone's cartoon.  Harry is the adult, because his threat assessment and response software is more calibrated. 


Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24350
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #189 on: March 31, 2022, 10:53:10 AM »
Quote
(3)  Harry is the Adult, not the Toddler

While I like the toddler with a gun metaphor, in this metaphor Demonreach is the toddler, not Harry.  Demonreach is sort of a super-natural Bam-Bam from the Flintstone's cartoon.  Harry is the adult, because his threat assessment and response software is more calibrated.

I totally agree with this point especially, also neither Hades or Uriel would give a nuke rattle to a toddler..

Offline SerScot

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1585
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #190 on: January 19, 2023, 12:41:53 AM »
Going back to the OP what if Harry had gotten a promise from Ramirez, on his power, to keep his relationship with Thomas and Eb secret.  Would
That revelation to Ramirez have assuaged Ramirez’s doubts?  The explanation of why Harry was so tight with a White Court Vamp?
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24350
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #191 on: January 19, 2023, 04:42:06 AM »
Going back to the OP what if Harry had gotten a promise from Ramirez, on his power, to keep his relationship with Thomas and Eb secret.  Would
That revelation to Ramirez have assuaged Ramirez’s doubts?  The explanation of why Harry was so tight with a White Court Vamp?

I doubt it, it might have made it worse.

Offline SerScot

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1585
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #192 on: January 19, 2023, 02:28:32 PM »
I doubt it, it might have made it worse.

How?  We know Harry is an unreliable narrator and he seriously misjudges people (see Hendricks) his constant desire for secrecy isolates him from people who like and want to support him.  He should have trusted Ramirez.  He was wrong not to.
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24350
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #193 on: January 19, 2023, 03:21:04 PM »
How?  We know Harry is an unreliable narrator and he seriously misjudges people (see Hendricks) his constant desire for secrecy isolates him from people who like and want to support him.  He should have trusted Ramirez.  He was wrong not to.

  You really think since Ramirez doesn't trust vampires to begin with that knowing that Thomas was Harry's brother would have made him trust him more?  On the contrary in his mind it could have been an even stronger reason for Harry to be in league with the White Court, even if Harry's motives may have been more understandable.

Offline SerScot

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1585
    • View Profile
Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« Reply #194 on: January 19, 2023, 03:23:25 PM »
  You really think since Ramirez doesn't trust vampires to begin with that knowing that Thomas was Harry's brother would have made him trust him more?  On the contrary in his mind it could have been an even stronger reason for Harry to be in league with the White Court, even if Harry's motives may have been more understandable.

Harry’s honesty and forthrightness would have promoted trust… from Ramirez to Harry.  :)
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC