Thomas hoped Marcone would Kill Lara?

[Mira]

This.  If the author introduces a moral quandary for a character don’t forget you did so three books later.

Indeed, that is what happens when there are years between books, one is busy beginning and finishing other series, and have five other projects on the burner.. Oh yeah, try to have a life outside of that as well..   Details tend to get lost..

[vincentric]

Thomas's mental struggles are a feature of Thomas. If Jim gives us more short fiction from Thomas's POV then I suspect we'll learn a great deal more about them.

But the books are about Harry. There was no time to go in-depth about Thomas since TC. Changes takes  place over four days time and Thomas has a short discussion before they go to Rudy's and then is pretty much gone until they leave for Chichen Itza. He's not in GS until the end and then we get their conversation on the boat in CD which covers a lot of this in a book that covers one and a half days once the plot begins. No Thomas in Skin Game because it's about Murphy, Butters and Michael and then he's a plot device in PT/BG. Used to provoke the Eb/Harry fights and manipulate Harry into taking Justine to Demonreach. 

[Mira]

Thomas's mental struggles are a feature of Thomas. If Jim gives us more short fiction from Thomas's POV then I suspect we'll learn a great deal more about them.

But that's my point, at the end of Turn Coat, Thomas had murdered several young women to survive after Shaggy tortured him to the point of death, the whole rinse and repeat brought out the full vampire.  This pleased Lara, but Harry was totally taken aback by the change.  Then the next time was see Thomas, he is the same guy he always was, still a vampire, but also very human.  I guess that plays into Harry not understanding Eb's attitude towards Thomas in Peace Talks.  But I still wish it had been explored more.

[vincentric]

But that's my point, at the end of Turn Coat, Thomas had murdered several young women to survive after Shaggy tortured him to the point of death, the whole rinse and repeat brought out the full vampire.  This pleased Lara, but Harry was totally taken aback by the change.  Then the next time was see Thomas, he is the same guy he always was, still a vampire, but also very human.  I guess that plays into Harry not understanding Eb's attitude towards Thomas in Peace Talks.  But I still wish it had been explored more.

The end of Turn Coat was about 2 weeks after the torture occurred. Thomas was just beginning to heal. After that he has four extended non-action scenes.

The short conversation in Changes which was partly about Thomas but mostly about strategy. The short glimpse at the end of Ghost Story.(The solution to his feeding problem may account for his partial recovery.) His conversation with Harry on the Water Beetle.( A reunion with his presumed dead brother, which also let them clear some emotional baggage.) Finally his talks with Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks where he informs him of Justine's pregnancy and then later in the apartment where they discuss fatherhood before Eb shows up.

Between Justine giving him a way to feed and be with her and Harry returning from the dead, Thomas had a lot going well from him to help him in healing.

[Basil]

This.  If the author introduces a moral quandary for a character don’t forget you did so three books later.

Good point.  What Thomas has gone through before being put in Stasis is likely many times worse than what Shaggy did to him.  Plus, he doesn't have the real Justine anymore (or perhaps his illusion of her is gone). 

Question:  Is a hypothetically well-fed Thomas actually a match for Lara?  I actually don't think so.  I suspect that Lara, Thomas and Lord Raith are the three strongest of the Whites, but that doesn't mean that he can take down Lara.  She has too much experience, is older (and therefore stronger) and probably knows how to use the Hunger to achieve a wider range of tactical objectives. 

[KurtinStGeorge]

Good point.  What Thomas has gone through before being put in Stasis is likely many times worse than what Shaggy did to him.  Plus, he doesn't have the real Justine anymore (or perhaps his illusion of her is gone). 

Question:  Is a hypothetically well-fed Thomas actually a match for Lara?  I actually don't think so.  I suspect that Lara, Thomas and Lord Raith are the three strongest of the Whites, but that doesn't mean that he can take down Lara.  She has too much experience, is older (and therefore stronger) and probably knows how to use the Hunger to achieve a wider range of tactical objectives.

Add to that, Lara has had the time to peruse her father's library; which I believe was supposed to contain a great deal of magical knowledge.  My guess is that probably meant White Court vampire abilities.  Way back in Blood Rites, we were given a description of Lord Raith's 'kiss of death' technique, which he would use; presumably against other White Court vampires, to start business meetings of the Court to get everyone's attention.  Harry even teased Lord Raith about his inability to use the kiss of death any longer because of Margaret's death curse.

I'm think this is an example of Chekov's gun.  We've been given a graphic description of a rare and powerful White Court vampire attack method but we haven't seen it used; at least not yet.  My hypothesis is that at some point we will get to see it used.  I think it could occur in the next book.
Most likely, that means a resurgent Lord Raith uses the kiss of death to show everyone he is back, or; and I think this next scenario is far more likely, Lara Raith uses the same ability to show those in the White Court she no longer needs her father as a figurehead to maintain her leadership of the Court.

I suppose a third possibility is that Thomas will get the opportunity to learn this nasty trick and his father's other secrets, which will allow him to challenge Lara and become the leader of the White Court, but at present that seems highly unlikely to occur.

   

[Mira]

Chekov's gun

Shaggy's treatment of Thomas and how this affected him at the end of Turn Coat is a very good example of it.  Jim had Thomas repeatedly beaten up to the point of death, presented with young women he had to feed upon until they died and it changed him.  This changed him, he seemed more at peace with being a vampire at the end of the story, this pleased Lara, but upset Harry greatly.  He even asked him what he thought Justine thought about all of this.  So the promise of conflict between Harry and Thomas, but it never really happened. 

[vincentric]

It would have been an issue if Thomas was feeding and killing like a typical White Court vampire but he wasn't. He did have to come face to face with the fact that he is really a predator when pushed to his utmost. That he could not overcome his nature and not feed on those victims was the cause of his despair.

Whatever else Justine/Nemesis was doing when she showed him how to feed again, by feeding him she mitigated this emotional crisis. He didn't have to feed on unsuspecting or unwilling victims or survive by constant nibbling on his clients.

[Cornbred]

I can't help but wonder if something else is going on here.  Thomas had been remade by Shagnasty into a killing machine in TC, and then suddenly in Changes he is the same old Thomas.  We know that Justine is Nfected, is it too much of a stretch to think Thomas was also Nfected by Justine?  Maybe the whole thing is a retcon by Jim but the fact that nobody in-universe notices or comments on Thomas' sudden personality changes is disquieting. 

[vincentric]

I'm beginning to wonder if I got a different copy of Turn Coat than other people.

Thomas was taken by Shagnasty and tortured to near death. Then while he was only semi-coherent he was given a victim to feed off. Which he did killing them in the process. This cycle was repeated several times in rapid succession driving him to near insanity. Harry knocks the unconscious Thomas into the cabin with Molly and Morgan and he wakes up and Molly activates the crystal to protect herself.  The battle is won and Lara and family take Thomas away to treat him, probably killing several more young women in the process.

When next we see Thomas in the epilogues, he is just able to go out in public after several weeks of healing. By his own admission he realizes that he is a vampire when driven to his utmost and that he is seeing people as food first. But he never states that he is going back to killing like a regular WC vampire. He's just weeks removed from a mental and physical trauma that left him with severe PTSD and just starting the healing process.

A year or so later in Changes, he better but still struggling against his nature as he, Harry and Molly talk on the way to Rudolph's house. Then Harry dies and he's thrown into his deep funk which isn't lifted until the end of Ghost Story. But he wasn't killing. Justine chides him for starving himself.

And eight months later, in Cold Days, he's close to the Thomas we're used to. But he's more conscious of his nature and more honest about it as he advises Harry on dealing with his mantle.

So while I understand that the end of Turn Coat may have hinted at a change in Thomas. After almost two years, he's healed quite a bit and should realistically be close to his old self, san a trigger.

[Mira]

So while I understand that the end of Turn Coat may have hinted at a change in Thomas. After almost two years, he's healed quite a bit and should realistically be close to his old self, san a trigger.

Yeah, but at the end of Turn Coat Thomas was more the "classic White Court Vamp," that isn't Thomas.  Then that gets swept under the rug pretty quickly, what I'm wondering is if at the point he was more vulnerable and HWWB/Justine is able to take advantage of him.. As in at the end of Ghost Story she brings in a lesbian to have sex with so she and Thomas can touch each other and have sex.  Ask yourself, if it was that easy, why didn't they do that years before? Remember  at the end of Battle Ground Justine/HWWB was boasting to Harry how he/she set things up so Thomas could get her pregnant..  Hmmmm... Was Shaggy cahoots with Outsiders back in Turn Coat?

[vincentric]

Yeah, but at the end of Turn Coat Thomas was more the "classic White Court Vamp," that isn't Thomas.  Then that gets swept under the rug pretty quickly, what I'm wondering is if at the point he was more vulnerable and HWWB/Justine is able to take advantage of him.. As in at the end of Ghost Story she brings in a lesbian to have sex with so she and Thomas can touch each other and have sex.  Ask yourself, if it was that easy, why didn't they do that years before? Remember  at the end of Battle Ground Justine/HWWB was boasting to Harry how he/she set things up so Thomas could get her pregnant..  Hmmmm... Was Shaggy cahoots with Outsiders back in Turn Coat?

While I think it happened earlier, it's possible that Nemesis had not infected Justine until Turn Coat and was not in full control of her until after Changes or Cold Days. We know that there is some part of Justine still there because her love for Thomas renews their protection after each liaison.

[Mira]

While I think it happened earlier, it's possible that Nemesis had not infected Justine until Turn Coat and was not in full control of her until after Changes or Cold Days. We know that there is some part of Justine still there because her love for Thomas renews their protection after each liaison.

Do we?  As far as Nemesis goes, I don't think that would affect the "true love" protection.  My point is if it merely took a sex act with someone else to cancel it out, why didn't it happen before Ghost Story?
Also there were some questions regarding Justine in Turn Coat..  I just skimmed across them looking for something else, but after Shaggy takes Thomas it becomes a question of whether or not Justine can still sense Thomas for I think were tracking purposes.  As I said it was a quick glance, but what if Shaggy was softening up Thomas for Nemesis?  Could Justine been lying about not sensing Thomas so Shaggy would have time to remove as much humanity from Thomas as possible?

[vincentric]

Do we?  As far as Nemesis goes, I don't think that would affect the "true love" protection.  My point is if it merely took a sex act with someone else to cancel it out, why didn't it happen before Ghost Story?
Also there were some questions regarding Justine in Turn Coat..  I just skimmed across them looking for something else, but after Shaggy takes Thomas it becomes a question of whether or not Justine can still sense Thomas for I think were tracking purposes.  As I said it was a quick glance, but what if Shaggy was softening up Thomas for Nemesis?  Could Justine been lying about not sensing Thomas so Shaggy would have time to remove as much humanity from Thomas as possible?

Thomas would still love Justine but I doubt that a Nemesis dominated Justine loves Thomas.

Just like completely controlling Cat Sith in Cold Days overrode his Sidhe compulsions, dominating Justine to betray Thomas and kill Harry breaks something in Justine. Barring a healing on the Mab/Leah scale, I don't think she(or Cat Sith) can come back to themselves and I doubt Justine has the strength to survive the procedure.

[Mira]

Thomas would still love Justine but I doubt that a Nemesis dominated Justine loves Thomas.

Of course not, but a Nemesis dominated Justine could fake it and the sex act with another is all that she needed to fake it.  Once the protection is gone, it stays gone..