Mab chose Molly

[The_Sibelis]

I'll break it down for you, Barney-style.

citation

The fae lady mantles are supposed to go to the closest reflection of their court.

Lily was an undeclared changeling. Her mother was a Nixie, making her a mortal, technically. But Nixies are members of the Winter court. FLAW.

Like what, the same force in opposite directions? No where was it proclaimed winter will be winter and summer will be summer. This aligns perfectly with wild fae chosing base entirely on how they behaved

Lily said that no mortal has ever been given a fae queen mantle.

Mab confided in Harry that she was once mortal. FLAW. It's a double FLAW, since Mab and Titania are twin sisters per WOJ. Whoops! It's a quadruple FLAW, since Maeve and Sarissa were Mab's twin daughters by an Austrian composer in the 19th century, and Maeve was already the Winter Lady.

lily said this... Lily. The lady actively being lied to by a compromised winter lady and largely ignored by Titania. She was wrong. Period. Obviously... There's even a Woj stating lily was delusional in her thinking FYI

WOJ is that a person possessing a fae mantle can't acquire another one, since they would be 'full'. https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/ On this page, all the way at the bottom.

already makes the addendum that the cup COULD be open. Changeling, potential immortal, not at all capped off on capacity.

Lily was the Summer Knight and acquired the Summer Lady mantle. FLAW.

In Summer Knight, Aurora just dies. Harry doesn't even find out until days later that Lily is now the Summer lady and Fix took up the Summer Knight.

In Cold Days there's a big dramatic sequence where the mantle coalesces into a big green bird-like figure and leaps from Lily's prostrate form into Sarissa. The same thing happens between Maeve and Molly, only the bird is blue. FLAW.

difference between NN area, where spirit IS body and reality where spirit bonds to body. The assumption is applying the same rules to both places, especially when one of those places was made specifically to kill immortals. And not just potentially kill, but unmake and redue the entire balance there.

These are contradictions. We are being told one thing and being shown another. Until an errata sheet is published, there's no clarity. And, FWIW, Jim has said out front, that he WILL lie to us. Until and unless it's shown and explained in the books, it's not written in stone. And even then, comic book rules apply. Harry is a rule-breaker. See also: Law of Magic 1 and 5.

that's the only lie he's ever told, and why am I listening to these wojs from someone who doesn't believe them? Contradictory.
Now let me explain how theory works. Someone comes up with a supposition, they look at examples and tests to come up with a theory based on what they find. It then becomes an acceptable theory. Someone disagrees, they then have to prove that theory false by showing there own theory with valid data in reply, otherwise the theory still stands.
Now, Loyd raped lily but she still qualifies for the lady position. Molly also qualifies because she's never actually had intercourse. I supposite that rape doesn't count as losing ones virginity because no choice was made, nothing was given. A BIG thing to the fae specifically, intentional exchange, debt, ect. Rape is a violation, a violent act of taking something by force. The fae can't do this, ergo they don't recognize this as a valid exchange of anything. Now, prove me wrong.

*These "flaws" people keep seeing, are where your supposed to look and figure out the answer( Woj he literally puts all the answers in the books but just leaves out the key bridging detail your supposed to figure out for yourself), seeing a problem and giving it the label of a problem is not looking for a solution. It will never find anything, it isn't a means to an end and I find it indicative of a lazy mindset.

[TrueMonk]

To me Mabs command that Harry should kill Molly if she does in battleground implies that mother winter would have some control over where the mantles went. It seems like an extremely risky option to have both the queen and lady mantle go to someone random. And I do not think that Mab could be reasonable certain who would be nearby when (if) Harry killed Molly.

In general it just seems like a very risky mechanic to have it entirely random. Although I guess that mother winter could always place her desired mother next to the current undesired mother and kill the undesired one.

[Mira]

  Or more simply, Jim is human, at those events he has to keep a lot at the top of his head.  The Files is a long series, he written a lot of books aside from those.  Everyone makes mistakes, even Jim, or he may give an answer but when he actually writes the next novel what he said didn't quite fit as he thought it would in the over all book or series, as the author/god of this series, he has the option of changing his mind..

[morriswalters]

It really doesn't matter. If Molly is worse for the situation then the chaos of losing two Queens then enter chaos.  Sometimes there aren't any good choices. In that sense this has nothing to do with how the Mantle moves.

In Summer Knight both Courts are on the field en masse, including the Queens. Harry is only semi conscious when the transfer happens, so we don't know how it was handled.  It was the introduction of the colors. Lilly is portrayed as not the brightest crayon in the box, making her an unreliable narrator.

[Mira]

It really doesn't matter. If Molly is worse for the situation then the chaos of losing two Queens then enter chaos.  Sometimes there aren't any good choices. In that sense this has nothing to do with how the Mantle moves.

In Summer Knight both Courts are on the field en masse, including the Queens. Harry is only semi conscious when the transfer happens, so we don't know how it was handled.  It was the introduction of the colors. Lilly is portrayed as not the brightest crayon in the box, making her an unreliable narrator.

And supposedly Mab had been grooming Maeve to be Lady from birth practically, look how that turned out.  In that case preparation and suitability weren't everything.

[Arjan]

Or a really big one that is not topped off.

[vincentric]

While I'm not going to weigh in on whether rape cancels virginity we have a pretty convincing argument that it is not required to become a Lady. Unless one believes that Sarissa was a virgin at the time she took the mantle. 

[Ed0517]

Mab chose Molly.

In the grip of insomnia last night I went back and re-read the chapter in Peace Talks where Harry summons Molly and this bit jumped out at me. It was easy to miss given all the bombshells with the summoning and Molly's tenuous mortal status.
There’s so much to unpack here. But, first and foremost, MAB CHOSE MOLLY TO BE THE WINTER LADY.


So, perhaps in a way, Molly brought herself to Mab’s attention by helping Harry arrange his death? Lea instructing her during her year as the Ragged Lady might have helped prepare her to be a vessel for fae power, but I think she was already on the board. Besides, due to Lea’s obligation, she would have been bound to instruct Molly. Molly made a cold, hard decision, against her emotional human interests, to help Harry suicide. That really does ring of Winter.

as you note, the fae are information hoarders (if they only could work ferromancy, they could fill disk arrays....)

Molly likely was watched somewhat before Harry even came in the picture. She is the daughter of a Knight of The Cross, his eldest child. He is one of the more powerful mortals out there in a sense. Then she manifests Talent, and becomes the apprentice to a very potent wizard.  Surveillance goes up a notch. Then helps Harry attempt to slip his bargain with Mab - obeys her master, and does so with skill and competence.  Her term as the Ragged Lady. Shows bravery and skill - she did well, without the raw power of Harry or Lea. Sure, Lea was fulfilling her pledge, watching over Molly... what in her pledge precludes her from filing progress reports with Mab?

[Ed0517]

There’s so much to unpack here. But, first and foremost, MAB CHOSE MOLLY TO BE THE WINTER LADY.

Actually she didn't, when it happens in Cold Days after the fact she tells Harry she would have preferred Molly to have been the Summer Lady, or rather said she felt she was more suited for that and that Sarissa would become the Winter Lady.  But Maeve and the Mantles had other ideas.  So Mab chose Molly to be a Lady, but not Winter Lady.Titania didn't chose Lily, she was the nearest vessel when Aurora died, Lily wasn't at all prepared to be a Lady.  Titania said she would help her, and not saying she didn't, but Titania was in deep mourning for some time over Aurora, all of this led to infested Maeve being able to lie to Lily and convince her of things that brought about her end and more.
Could have, but I think Molly was on the radar before that for her warlock attitudes.. Also back in Grave Peril I think it was Lea expresses interest in Michael's first child.

I think Molly was Plan B, but Plan B is still a Plan.

[Ed0517]

Harry is an unreliable narrator. And the fae hoard knowledge. They aren't going to give it to you without you cornering them by asking them three times or making a bargain for knowledge with them.

In Summer Knight, Lily says that no mortal has ever received a fae mantle before. Mab and Titania were both mortal and they were both ladies. If fae blood is required to receive a mantle how did Molly get it? We know who their parents were and they were both human mortals.

How much Fae blood do they need? Is this the old single drop rule? Maybe a grandmother or grandfather had been a changeling who chose humanity? For that matter, maybe you need the fae gene to be a wizard....  Charity passed it down to Molly, and Margaret Le Fay passed it to Harry in the X. The

[Ed0517]

Bob, like Harry, is not an unimpeachable source. Most of the time he's near enough to absolutely correct. But even back to Fool Moon, he listed all the werewolves, but missed Tara West's type of werewolf.

Tera is not a werewolf. Werewolves are base human. Harry can't soulgaze her, IIRC - Tera is not human. She's a shapechanger, but a different species. Likely not really canis at all.

[Arjan]

While I'm not going to weigh in on whether rape cancels virginity we have a pretty convincing argument that it is not required to become a Lady. Unless one believes that Sarissa was a virgin at the time she took the mantle.

Could have been part of the deal with her mother.

There are differences between what we want words to mean, what we think words should mean, what the words mean for other people here, now, in the past and somewhere else.

The ideas Jim uses in his stories are old ideas and these ideas are not always nice.

We like to think marriage is between two persons with mutual consent. Other people have other ideas. The whole concept of virginity has a lot of negative bagage from the past.

28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not …

The world were some of these tales come from is a world where a women must be a virgin to get married and where a women is forced to poverty and destitute if she gets spoiled and can only be saved from that fate by this rule. This was all very literal. There are wedding practices were the girl was/is checked for it and the bloody sheet is shown.

[Mira]

The world were some of these tales come from is a world where a women must be a virgin to get married and where a women is forced to poverty and destitute if she gets spoiled and can only be saved from that fate by this rule. This was all very literal. There are wedding practices were the girl was/is checked for it and the bloody sheet is shown.

Yup, and some women got very clever about it too, like hiding a vile of blood under the pillow to spill on the sheets.  To this day some aspect of the importance of virginity is practiced in all cultures and it can get very ugly for the one raped.  Won't go further because me fears skating too
close to the thin ice of forbidden topics.. Lets just say there is plenty of material for Jim to draw upon for the sex rules for Ladies of the Fae Courts.

[Arjan]

Yup, and some women got very clever about it too, like hiding a vile of blood under the pillow to spill on the sheets.  To this day some aspect of the importance of virginity is practiced in all cultures and it can get very ugly for the one raped.  Won't go further because me fears skating too
close to the thin ice of forbidden topics.. Lets just say there is plenty of material for Jim to draw upon for the sex rules for Ladies of the Fae Courts.

Now there are virginity repair operations. There is something terribly wrong if a girl feels compelled to do this: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51189319

[Mira]

Now there are virginity repair operations. There is something terribly wrong if a girl feels compelled to do this: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51189319

Indeed, especially when a girl's hymen can be broken in very innocent ways, like a hard fall on her butt for example.  The girl is merely a victim of the beliefs of her family and the societal cultural/religious ones around her.  You and I might call it arcane ignorance, but it's a traditional viewpoint that is very hard to reverse.