Author Topic: Mab chose Molly  (Read 12202 times)

Offline LostInTime

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Mab chose Molly
« on: October 14, 2021, 01:51:58 PM »
Mab chose Molly.

In the grip of insomnia last night I went back and re-read the chapter in Peace Talks where Harry summons Molly and this bit jumped out at me. It was easy to miss given all the bombshells with the summoning and Molly's tenuous mortal status.

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…Molly probably wasn’t going to forgive herself for assisting in what had amounted to a very complicated near suicide. There’d been a lot of fallout, on every conceivable scale. Very little of it had been Molly’s fault, directly or otherwise, but she’d been a mover on that scene, and she probably felt at least as bad as I did about it, and I’d been way more in the middle of things.

And, being a wizard, I felt guilty as hell for walking her into that. I hadn’t had much choice, if I wanted to save my daughter’s life, but thought the cost was worthy, it still had to be paid-and Molly had laid down cold, hard cash.

So cold and so hard that Mab had wound up choosing her to be the new Winter Lady, in fact.

Suddenly I wondered if maybe I hadn’t been hard enough on myself. I mean, hell, at least when I’d become the Winter Knight, I’d made a choice. My back had been to a wall and my options had all sucked, but I’d at least sought out my bargain with Mab.

Molly hadn’t been consulted, and Mab’s policy on dissenting opinion was crystalline: Deal with it or die.

Of course, inveterate dissenters like myself, it created a pretty simple counterpolicy for when I was tired of Mab’s crap: Deal with it or kill me. Mab was a lot of things, but irrational wasn’t one of them, and as long as it was easier to put up with me than replace me, we had attained a state of balance. I imagined that Molly had come to similar arrangements…
There’s so much to unpack here. But, first and foremost, MAB CHOSE MOLLY TO BE THE WINTER LADY.

Which means everything we’ve been told or shown regarding succession of the lady mantles is either wrong, incomplete, or the person telling us how it works has been lied to. Unreliable narrators is the rule instead of the exception in DF. Fae are information hoarders. People wearing fae mantles must behave as fae would, so they are obligated to hoard information and not release it unless you back them into a corner and ask them three times. They get a bit testy about that.

Now, that opens the door that Titania may have chosen Lily to be the first replacement Summer Lady. If the queen gets to choose from available vessels for fae power, Sarissa being chosen as the Summer Lady can only be viewed as revenge for Aurora’s death. After all, Mab did choose the person who caused Aurora’s death as her Winter Knight.

So, perhaps in a way, Molly brought herself to Mab’s attention by helping Harry arrange his death? Lea instructing her during her year as the Ragged Lady might have helped prepare her to be a vessel for fae power, but I think she was already on the board. Besides, due to Lea’s obligation, she would have been bound to instruct Molly. Molly made a cold, hard decision, against her emotional human interests, to help Harry suicide. That really does ring of Winter.

Mab could have chosen Murphy for the mantle. There’s no age requirement that we know of. Molly may have been technically virginal, but Lily certainly wasn’t since Slate had raped her. Murphy wasn’t a virgin, but she had never had a child, so she would have technically been allowable by the flawed rules we have been shown.

And let’s face it, veiled or not, there’s no way an apprentice wizard’s veils would have been good enough to conceal her from Mab, who in terms of age, experience, power and sneakiness is leagues above Molly in Cold Days.

So, when Maeve died, Mab had a choice and she chose Molly.

Mind. Blown.
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Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2021, 02:23:27 PM »
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Molly may have been technically virginal, but Lily certainly wasn’t since Slate had raped her
I absolutely hate when someone says this. Virginity is a spiritual ideal of giving yourself to someone. Rape doesn't count. Very much so in a world we're metaphysical things are tangible.best not to ask me to clarify. I really shouldn't have to.

Offline Beldon

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2021, 02:27:36 PM »
I don't have the book available for reference, but in the conversation that Harry and Mab have, she as much as said that Molly's association with Harry is what put her on Mab's radar. She admitted that she was prepping molly as a fallback if something happened to Sarissa. Also according to Harry, the mantle had to go to someone with fae blood, so Murph would not be an option. I had long wondered why the mantle went directly to Sarissa and Molly. The summer lady mantle should have gone to Fix as established in summer knight (need reference). The winter mantle should have gone directly to Mab, but she easily could have redirected it to Molly herself.

Offline Mira

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2021, 02:53:14 PM »
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There’s so much to unpack here. But, first and foremost, MAB CHOSE MOLLY TO BE THE WINTER LADY.

Actually she didn't, when it happens in Cold Days after the fact she tells Harry she would have preferred Molly to have been the Summer Lady, or rather said she felt she was more suited for that and that Sarissa would become the Winter Lady.  But Maeve and the Mantles had other ideas.  So Mab chose Molly to be a Lady, but not Winter Lady.
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Now, that opens the door that Titania may have chosen Lily to be the first replacement Summer Lady. If the queen gets to choose from available vessels for fae power, Sarissa being chosen as the Summer Lady can only be viewed as revenge for Aurora’s death. After all, Mab did choose the person who caused Aurora’s death as her Winter Knight.
Titania didn't chose Lily, she was the nearest vessel when Aurora died, Lily wasn't at all prepared to be a Lady.  Titania said she would help her, and not saying she didn't, but Titania was in deep mourning for some time over Aurora, all of this led to infested Maeve being able to lie to Lily and convince her of things that brought about her end and more.
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So, perhaps in a way, Molly brought herself to Mab’s attention by helping Harry arrange his death? Lea instructing her during her year as the Ragged Lady might have helped prepare her to be a vessel for fae power, but I think she was already on the board. Besides, due to Lea’s obligation, she would have been bound to instruct Molly. Molly made a cold, hard decision, against her emotional human interests, to help Harry suicide. That really does ring of Winter.

Could have, but I think Molly was on the radar before that for her warlock attitudes.. Also back in Grave Peril I think it was Lea expresses interest in Michael's first child.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2021, 02:57:28 PM »
Certainly Mab picked Molly to be Winter Lady.  She had Lea prep her in Ghost Story. She could do that because she was Harry's apprentice. Molly couldn't say no since she was cut off from everybody else. She endured exactly the same kind of things Harry and Sarissa endured in the beginning of Cold Days.

The story arc that ended with Molly as Winter Lady and Harry as Winter Knight started in Grave Peril. In Death Masks Molly, who is way too young, gives love advice to Harry that will end with Susan pregnant. Jim had to have this in mind.  In Proven Guilty Harry binds her to him as his apprentice to avoid a beheading. In Turn Coat he spends a lot of time telling Molly not to do exactly what he'll ask her to do in Changes.  Where he then proceeds to throw her under the bus by taking the cowards way out. Since he left her under a sentence of death when he has himself killed, Mab  sent Lea in to get her ready.

Even if she couldn't detect Molly Mab knew that she would be there.  Harry had programmed Molly to be there. Mab tells both the reader and Harry in the denouement of Cold Days how he did it.
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“That is not what I have been doing,” I spat.

“Is it not?” Mab asked. “Have I misunderstood? First you captured her imagination and affection as an associate of her father’s. You made her curious about what you could do, and nurtured that curiosity with silence. Then when she went to explore the Art, you elected not to interfere until such time as she found herself in dire straits—at which point your aid placed her deep within your obligation. You used that and her emotional attachment to you to plant and reap a follower who was talented, loyal, and in your debt. It was actually very well-done.”

I stood there with my mouth open for a second. “That . . . that isn’t . . . what I did.”

Mab leaned closer to me and said, “That is precisely what you did,” she said. “The only thing you did not do is admit to yourself that you were doing it. Which is why you never availed yourself of her charms. You told yourself lovely, idealistic lies, and you had a powerful, talented, loyal girl willing to give her life for yours who also had nowhere else to turn for help. As far as your career as a mentor goes, you grew into much the same image as DuMorne.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 510). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Offline Mira

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2021, 04:38:04 PM »
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Certainly Mab picked Molly to be Winter Lady.  She had Lea prep her in Ghost Story. She could do that because she was Harry's apprentice. Molly couldn't say no since she was cut off from everybody else. She endured exactly the same kind of things Harry and Sarissa endured in the beginning of Cold Days.

Not exactly,  page 499 Cold Days

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"Why?" I demanded.  "Why did you do it to her?"
"It was not my intention for her to replace Maeve," Mab said.  "Frankly, I would have considered her a better candidate for Summer."
"You still haven't told me why,"I said.
"I meant for Sarissa to take Maeve's place," Mab said.  "But one does not place all one's hopes with any one place,person, or plan.  Like chess, the superior player does nor plan to accomplish a single gambit, a particular entrapment. She establishes her pieces so that regardless of what her enemy does, she has forces ready to respond, to adapt, and to destroy,
Molly was made ready as a contingency." [b/]

Molly was a back up plan.

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The story arc that ended with Molly as Winter Lady and Harry as Winter Knight started in Grave Peril. In Death Masks Molly, who is way too young, gives love advice to Harry that will end with Susan pregnant. Jim had to have this in mind.  In Proven Guilty Harry binds her to him as his apprentice to avoid a beheading. In Turn Coat he spends a lot of time telling Molly not to do exactly what he'll ask her to do in Changes.  Where he then proceeds to throw her under the bus by taking the cowards way out. Since he left her under a sentence of death when he has himself killed, Mab  sent Lea in to get her ready.

I could go along with all of that except, Molly knew perfectly well why Harry asked her to wipe his memory.  She knew of the suicide and why it was necessary for his mind to be wiped.  She could have objected, she was of age, she isn't stupid, she understood and went along.  Perhaps out of love for Harry, perhaps because she didn't want to see him as the slave of Mab as Winter Knight,either.  She could rationalize, but that won't stop the human mind from feeling guilt after the fact which hers did.  Now is that why she became the rag lady?  Or is the simply rationalization because as we saw in Turn Coat, Molly didn't have any problem using her mental magical abilities if she thought she was right, even if the consequences of that would mean not just her head but Harry's head as well.  Assisting a suicide isn't a simple matter... Also suicide isn't a simple matter, to call it a coward's way out is offensive.

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“Is it not?” Mab asked. “Have I misunderstood? First you captured her imagination and affection as an associate of her father’s. You made her curious about what you could do, and nurtured that curiosity with silence. Then when she went to explore the Art, you elected not to interfere until such time as she found herself in dire straits—at which point your aid placed her deep within your obligation. You used that and her emotional attachment to you to plant and reap a follower who was talented, loyal, and in your debt. It was actually very well-done.”

Mab is so good at twisting, that is why you don't bargain with the Fae...
1] Should Harry not have become friends with Michael? 
2] Harry has never kept secret what he is, Molly has always known what he is, she also knows what her parents think of him.  Did Harry make himself out as a hero to her?  I really don't think so, Molly's own imagination filled in those blanks just as most pre-teen and teenage girls will do upon whom she has a crush.. Which usually is on someone unattainable and not that person's fault.
3] Harry had no clue she was exploring magic or had talent, he had no reason to. Until Proven Guilty Charity told him nothing of her own talent.  Molly never told him she thought she had talent, nor did she openly demonstrate that talent.
4] Harry was able to keep her head on her shoulders..  Yes, it reaped him a talented follower in his debt.. So? I mean should he have allowed the Merlin to lop off her head? Did any other wizard step up to share the Doom with her?  No, this is how Mab can be telling the absolute truth, but at the same time not because it is only half truths..
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Mab leaned closer to me and said, “That is precisely what you did,” she said. “The only thing you did not do is admit to yourself that you were doing it. Which is why you never availed yourself of her charms. You told yourself lovely, idealistic lies, and you had a powerful, talented, loyal girl willing to give her life for yours who also had nowhere else to turn for help. As far as your career as a mentor goes, you grew into much the same image as DuMorne.”

Harry was right, that isn't what he did, but he didn't stand his ground, as always taking blame where there is little or none.  Mab came at him from an emotional sore spot, comparing him to DuMorne...
Mab accuses him of being smug because he didn't take sexual advantage of her.  Well, another word for it is, "professional.." Also from that soul gaze, he knew very well how easily it would have been to take advantage of her in that way.
 Molly did have people to turn to for help, though not wizards she had two caring and intelligent
parents.  Not at all like young Harry and DuMorne, Harry had Elaine, but she had been enthralled that morning which DuMorne then attempted to do to Harry. 

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2021, 05:43:01 PM »
I know you disagree, but it is precisely how Jim wrote it. So the reader won't miss it he has Uriel say.
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“I believe that when you went after your daughter, you said something about letting the world burn. That you and your daughter would roast marshmallows.” I nodded bleakly. “It is one thing for you to say, ‘Let the world burn.’ It is another to say, ‘Let Molly burn.’ The difference is all in the name.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 555). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Why was Michael's child worth less than Maggie?  That was the choice Harry made. He made a promise to Molly and broke it. She was still under the doom and he left her swinging in the wind.  And this has nothing to do with anything Molly did.  He should never have asked her. His only saving grace was seven words.


Again another place where we disagree.
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2] Harry has never kept secret what he is, Molly has always known what he is, she also knows what her parents think of him.  Did Harry make himself out as a hero to her?  I really don't think so, Molly's own imagination filled in those blanks just as most pre-teen and teenage girls will do upon whom she has a crush.. Which usually is on someone unattainable and not that person's fault.
That Harry is oblivious makes not one whit of difference. Jim actually trolls you with this at the start of Proven Guilty.  Harry's bitching about how warlocks are killed by the Wardens. Yet under his nose, the daughter of his best friend goes warlock and he misses it. Pot, kettle, black? I bet you Jim fell off his chair laughing when he wrote that.

Just for the record the Dresden Files is a noir-ish mystery. This isn't me hating on Harry.  The protagonist is supposed to be flawed. He isn't Superman.

Offline LostInTime

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2021, 07:10:52 PM »
I don't have the book available for reference, but in the conversation that Harry and Mab have, she as much as said that Molly's association with Harry is what put her on Mab's radar. She admitted that she was prepping molly as a fallback if something happened to Sarissa. Also according to Harry, the mantle had to go to someone with fae blood, so Murph would not be an option. I had long wondered why the mantle went directly to Sarissa and Molly. The summer lady mantle should have gone to Fix as established in summer knight (need reference). The winter mantle should have gone directly to Mab, but she easily could have redirected it to Molly herself.
Harry is an unreliable narrator. And the fae hoard knowledge. They aren't going to give it to you without you cornering them by asking them three times or making a bargain for knowledge with them.

In Summer Knight, Lily says that no mortal has ever received a fae mantle before. Mab and Titania were both mortal and they were both ladies. If fae blood is required to receive a mantle how did Molly get it? We know who their parents were and they were both human mortals.

It was the cold, logical decision in Changes that put Molly on Mab's radar. Or was it the injury that Molly did by trying to deprive Mab of her Knight? When you do a fae injury, they MUST balance the scales. They don't have a choice. Just as if you do them a favor or make a bargain with them, they MUST balance the scales.
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Offline LostInTime

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2021, 07:11:23 PM »
I absolutely hate when someone says this. Virginity is a spiritual ideal of giving yourself to someone. Rape doesn't count. Very much so in a world we're metaphysical things are tangible.best not to ask me to clarify. I really shouldn't have to.
Your position isn't supported by the books, yet.
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Offline LostInTime

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2021, 07:20:00 PM »
My point is, we don't know the mechanism and criteria for choosing the lady when the mantle opens up. There's been conjecture, but it's not knowing conjecture. The only people who know are the fae queens, and mothers. And that doesn't include the ladies. Because I get the feeling there's gaps in the intellectus the ladies are privy to. And even if they knew the whole story, neither of them could relate it to Harry.

Bob, like Harry, is not an unimpeachable source. Most of the time he's near enough to absolutely correct. But even back to Fool Moon, he listed all the werewolves, but missed Tara West's type of werewolf.

I think we're going to get the whole spiel on the fae courts, how they came to be and how they operate. But the only person who can tell that story is Mother Winter and we'll probably have to wait until the BAT to get that story.
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Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2021, 07:59:43 PM »
Your position isn't supported by the books, yet.
I'll be quite honest, I'ma lose my cool with you real quick. The books entirely support that position, they DO NOT support your position. This
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by the flawed rules we have been shown.
is where YOUR position is not supported by the books, since it only fits based entirely on the idea what we've been shown is a false set of rules. The rules are the rules, Jim hasn't lied about them(and saying he has simply invalidates the point of listening to him explain Canon in HIS works) he hasn't shown us all of them, but where in he has they aren't flawed. Your understanding of them is, just as your position, especially after saying mine isn't, is flawed.
Now, if you really wanna argue this, go ahead. BUT, not applying a false negative to another's argument. Either break it down with something solid, proven facts, correlations, ect. OR, build up your own argument. But by the God's I'ma shred that point of contention to pieces in a way I haven't done on this forum in years..
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 08:01:40 PM by The_Sibelis »

Offline Mira

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2021, 09:04:03 PM »
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Why was Michael's child worth less than Maggie?  That was the choice Harry made. He made a promise to Molly and broke it. She was still under the doom and he left her swinging in the wind.  And this has nothing to do with anything Molly did.  He should never have asked her. His only saving grace was seven words.

I don't think that Harry would say that she was.  Do not discount the place Harry was in physically and emotionally, the choices he had were bad, but less bad was Winter Knight..  Harry only had Slate as an example of a Winter Knight and he didn't want to become Mab's hit man.  He asked Molly because he was desperate, saw no other way, and had very little time.  As I said, Molly was no longer some silly teenager, she'd been around the block, her choice, of her own free will, she assisted Harry's suicide.  If he had seen or could see another way out of his dilemma he would have chosen it.  I don't think either of them could think beyond that moment in Forthill's office when they made the decision.
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That Harry is oblivious makes not one whit of difference. Jim actually trolls you with this at the start of Proven Guilty.  Harry's bitching about how warlocks are killed by the Wardens. Yet under his nose, the daughter of his best friend goes warlock and he misses it. Pot, kettle, black? I bet you Jim fell off his chair laughing when he wrote that.
Really?  Harry might feel that and blame himself, but a few points, it isn't like he was at the Carpenter house every day and saw Molly every day.  Nothing is said about her hanging out at his place or his office.  Neither Michael or Charity said anything, especially Charity who knew one of her kids could have talent because she did, but thought if she ignored it it would go away like her own talent.  Ignoring her own near miss with unguided warlockhood, the last thing she wanted was to clue Harry in on all of this so he could be watching for the signs.  Remember what Harry said about when his own talents awakened? Suddenly he could jump higher and farther than the other kids if I remember correctly.  Yes, Harry is bitching about kids turning into warlocks and losing their heads over it.  However, 1] He learns because of Molly that kids with talent aren't that easy to spot.  2] He steps up asks for a trial, steps up to the plate and saves her, then volunteers to take the Doom along side of her in spite of his short comings as a teacher.. So Jim trolling us?  I don't think so.
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ust for the record the Dresden Files is a noir-ish mystery. This isn't me hating on Harry.  The protagonist is supposed to be flawed. He isn't Superman.
Exactly so lets not judge him like he is Superman or a moral paragon..

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2021, 09:47:48 PM »
My point is, we don't know the mechanism and criteria for choosing the lady when the mantle opens up.
We know enough.  Molly was primed for the Mantle by being in close proximity to the Fey.  Lily was primed the same way, by being in close contact with the Summer Knight. The only hard and fast rule is the Mantle has to go somewhere.  That was Maeve's threat. Short of Jim writing a treatise on it, I don't expect greater clarity.

@Mira
Sure he was.  And he does it often enough to be notable. He uses a specific temperature  reference in the Cantina scene in Summer Knight and spits it back out, to the word, in Proven Guilty. He does it in Small Favor.  In Chapter 3 he references Calvin and Hobbes before unleashing the Hobs on Harry and Michael in Chapter 23 with the inside joke that snowmen show up in that book constantly making them creatures of Winter.  It's uncanny if you pay attention on your rereads.


Offline Mira

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2021, 11:18:20 PM »
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Sure he was.  And he does it often enough to be notable. He uses a specific temperature  reference in the Cantina scene in Summer Knight and spits it back out, to the word, in Proven Guilty. He does it in Small Favor.  In Chapter 3 he references Calvin and Hobbes before unleashing the Hobs on Harry and Michael in Chapter 23 with the inside joke that snowmen show up in that book constantly making them creatures of Winter.  It's uncanny if you pay attention on your rereads.

But not in the way you think I think.  I think it was more like pointing out the irony of Harry's situation after his wondering how it happens that so many kids slip through.  It highlights the tragedy of it all, because something that should be straight forward, really isn't, a life's lesson for the smugness of youth and inexperience... And yes, in wizard terms Harry is both young and inexperienced.

Offline LostInTime

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Re: Mab chose Molly
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2021, 11:23:32 PM »
I'll be quite honest, I'ma lose my cool with you real quick. The books entirely support that position, they DO NOT support your position.

I'll break it down for you, Barney-style.

The fae lady mantles are supposed to go to the closest reflection of their court.

Lily was an undeclared changeling. Her mother was a Nixie, making her a mortal, technically. But Nixies are members of the Winter court. FLAW.

Lily said that no mortal has ever been given a fae queen mantle.

Mab confided in Harry that she was once mortal. FLAW. It's a double FLAW, since Mab and Titania are twin sisters per WOJ. Whoops! It's a quadruple FLAW, since Maeve and Sarissa were Mab's twin daughters by an Austrian composer in the 19th century, and Maeve was already the Winter Lady.

WOJ is that a person possessing a fae mantle can't acquire another one, since they would be 'full'. https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/ On this page, all the way at the bottom.

Lily was the Summer Knight and acquired the Summer Lady mantle. FLAW.

In Summer Knight, Aurora just dies. Harry doesn't even find out until days later that Lily is now the Summer lady and Fix took up the Summer Knight.

In Cold Days there's a big dramatic sequence where the mantle coalesces into a big green bird-like figure and leaps from Lily's prostrate form into Sarissa. The same thing happens between Maeve and Molly, only the bird is blue. FLAW.

These are contradictions. We are being told one thing and being shown another. Until an errata sheet is published, there's no clarity. And, FWIW, Jim has said out front, that he WILL lie to us. Until and unless it's shown and explained in the books, it's not written in stone. And even then, comic book rules apply. Harry is a rule-breaker. See also: Law of Magic 1 and 5.
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