Mother Winter Blackstaff Back

[morriswalters]

What is this Woj on Hecate not "splitting up or down"? Context?

If I can find it I'll post it. At some point I had the idea that the Mantle had been split vertically, 2 Mothers, 2 Queens and 2 Ladies. Somebody shot me down with a WOJ where Jim says otherwise.  I'll try to find it.

[groinkick]

If I can find it I'll post it. At some point I had the idea that the Mantle had been split vertically, 2 Mothers, 2 Queens and 2 Ladies. Somebody shot me down with a WOJ where Jim says otherwise.  I'll try to find it.

This isn't that but I found this quote interesting

The Mothers are extremely powerful beings, I mean, they’re really really well, you can tell because they hardly ever show up on the real world. In the Dresden Files universe if you don’t show up on the real world, it’s because you’re too big to walk around there. For instance,  I think in the third book, when the Dragon is talking about how the Earth couldn’t bear his weight, it’s not that the Earth itself would literally crack, it’s that reality would have issues trying to contain him, because every time he coughs, it would bend around like Neo in the Matrix. So, they spend most of their time NOT on the real world, they spend it hanging around in the Nevernever, all the really heavyweight guys do that. If you’re in the real world, well, the problem is that you’re in the world, and you’re kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they’re fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn’t mind it, he thinks it’s awesome. But anyway, you can always tell. If there’s folks who don’t show up in the real world, it’s because they’re super big. So, like, an angel shows up, and it’s just sort of a whispered presence that one person is aware of, that’s because he’s just too big to show up here, it’s a giant sandbox, and he’s got to be very very careful to not squash the sandbox. So, he just shows up for that one bit.

If this is true then it could mean the Mothers can't be killed, as long as they are in the NeverNever. 

[groinkick]

Jim called Mother Winter Baba Yaga.  There are similarities with Baba Yaga, and Hecate.  It could be that Baba Yaga is Winter, 3 women, and Hecate is Summer, 3 women. 
"In Slavic folklore, Baba Yaga (/ˌbɑːbə ˈjɑːɡə/; Russian: Баба-Яга, romanized: Baba-Yaga, pronounced [ˈbabə jɪˈɡa] (About this soundlisten))[a] is a supernatural being (or a trio of sisters of the same name)"

"However, it is noticeable that, like Hecate, Baba Yaga presides over a wide, diverse array of domains and functions."

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Mothers are immortal, like Mab she couldn’t be killed even with iron. Only the Stone Table which appears to have been set up as part of the Mantles, a deliberate backdoor, could kill them, or on Halloween when all immortals are vulnerable.

Many deities have cropped up under various names, the Fates could easily also have been Baba Yaga and her sisters, and the Norns etc. Lots of powerful triumvirates of witches. You have the original trio of the maiden, mother and the crone, they put their power in one set of Mantles, and additional power is added by other deities on Halloween to power them up, most notably the Crone, and a lesser extent the Mother. At the same time the same applies to Summer, a different triumvirate and the Stone Table is created regulating the Mantles and setting the limits upon their use, creating a balance. Some of the ordinal donors of power stay on under the new Mantles. All this is done under the strictures of the White God, be in the mortal world under lesser power, or face exile to the Never Never.

The knights are created at this time as well, the Mantles most in the real world, again from donated power. With the Courts created, the Fae (all Wildfae at this point) start declaring for their Court.

[LostInTime]

Mab could have indeed been killed that night. She told Harry so in her contingent final command.

Mab was immobilized with iron. What would have happened if someone had struck off her head with an iron sword instead of removing the rebar? We'll never know, that moment has passed. (That wouldn't have been Butters. The faithsaber could have definitely ended Mab. An angel's power is far beyond Mab.)

Enough power could have killed Mab. She said so herself. We don't know all of the times, places and conditions under which immortals can be killed. But I bet we're going to find out.

For what it's worth, the mantles don't make you immortal. You are still mortal, you are loaned immortality. Just as Michael was loaned Uriel's grace. If that mantle is taken away, you are just as mortal as you were before you got it. And Kringle's words to Harry at the end of Cold Days indicate that the mantles can be changed on Halloween. A mantle need not be forever. The original Mother Summer retired, per WOJ.

[The_Sibelis]

The Mothers are immortal, like Mab she couldn’t be killed even with iron. Only the Stone Table which appears to have been set up as part of the Mantles, a deliberate backdoor, could kill them, or on Halloween when all immortals are vulnerable.

Mabs not unkillable, she was vulnerable to death when that happened by her own words. An Halloween probably isn't the only confluence either. I confess, I wonder if say, the blackstaff isn't a confluence type being placed into an object. It would fit being deaths scythe.
*Mantles DO make you effectively immortal, the issue is not everyone is wearing a mantle. MW is the original being, not a mantle for instance.

[morriswalters]

Mab explains it in BG.  She tells Harry that she is immortal, not eternal.  She is, give or take, about a 1000 years old.

[Second Aristh]

The Eye might have killed Mab, but I don't think that beheading her with iron would have done it in BG.  Her head would have just grown back in enough time.  (Minutes?  Hours?  Months?  Hard to say)

The "a little bit mortal" concept attached to Vadderung and beings outside the NN is that somebody tough enough, smart enough, or lucky enough might be able to put him out of commission for a time, even outside of a confluence situation where it could be permanent.


Also, I think the idea of mantle vs no mantle is largely semantic.  Power combined with responsibilities/rules is basically a mantle.  The biggest of them just happen to provide limited immortality.

[The_Sibelis]

Looking at Harry's explanation of iron, he directly explained why that much iron could kill mab.

[Con]

The Eye might have killed Mab, but I don't think that beheading her with iron would have done it in BG.  Her head would have just grown back in enough time.  (Minutes?  Hours?  Months?  Hard to say)

I have a theory that the Eye did kill Mab it's just taking longer. Like a mortal wound infected or a curse.

That's what Titania and Mab were talking about at the end of Battle Ground.

"You understand what has happened" Titania replied quietly
"what it Means"
"I expect you to do your duty" Mab said
Titania's expression flickered in pain "When have I not?"

It's the flicker of pain that does it.

As for immortal being so powerful they can't interact with the world without mortal free will. It's ore of a hindrance to power than a benefit.

Asking Ferrovax to kill one person is likie asking Mt Vesuvias to kill one Roman.

[groinkick]

I have a theory that the Eye did kill Mab it's just taking longer. Like a mortal wound infected or a curse.

It's a good theory but I don't think it's correct, here's why.  Generally when something like this happens, the afflicted person grows weaker over time.  Mab hasn't.  She was very weak, and frail after the blast from the Eye.  Later on she had returned to normal.  If she had been mortally wounded, I don't think she'd have gotten stronger, and healthier afterwards.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Mab wasn’t sure of the outcome in BG, if an immortal is not killed then they are dissipated until they re-coalesce. This is what happened with Erl and Odin, but they pulled themselves together quickly, another blast? Perhaps not so quickly, but the Eye had to cycle and there were multiple threats to Ethnui, which was the strategy. We have only been told of two ways of killing Mab, there isn’t a third.

A Mab dissipated for several decades is a bad as a Mab dead, worse it is not sure if the Mantle would transfer to Molly or not during that period. Nor is it clear that the being Mab would survive this, whilst the Mantle would, Mab wasn’t an immortal before assuming a Mantle

[Mira]

Mab wasn’t sure of the outcome in BG, if an immortal is not killed then they are dissipated until they re-coalesce. This is what happened with Erl and Odin, but they pulled themselves together quickly, another blast? Perhaps not so quickly, but the Eye had to cycle and there were multiple threats to Ethnui, which was the strategy. We have only been told of two ways of killing Mab, there isn’t a third.

However you are talking gods, Mab isn't exactly a god.. True for the mantle, but put Mab in a blender and pour her out, the only chewable bit left is the mantle, the rest ain't coming back together in my opinion.

[The_Sibelis]

However you are talking gods, Mab isn't exactly a god.. True for the mantle, but put Mab in a blender and pour her out, the only chewable bit left is the mantle, the rest ain't coming back together in my opinion.

the way I interpreted it, is a conjunction uncaps the immutability of immortals (even and perhaps especially those who wear mantles). Which is why they could kill the ladies off during CD. Without an conjunction or otherwise lethal tool, they are in fact immortal when inside the mantle.

[groinkick]

According to Jim, the Eye is a god killing weapon.  He said even Uriel could be killed by it eventually (if he just sat there and did nothing).  It would have killed Mab if she took one or maybe two more blasts with it.  She barely survived the first one.  The Mantle would have went to Molly right away I'd think.