Mother Winter Blackstaff Back

[The_Sibelis]

Talking purely speculatively, why can't it be just one? If there are an infinite number then the game might be over over before it begins. The more gates the more likely that one will fall.  The math is fairly simple. So create one place and populate it with an appropriate cast of characters and the go.  In that scenario all the Mothers have to keep up with is the Human branches. Since all the fey come from human stock there you go.  I suspect angels guarded the border before Humans.  Just saying.

yea.. and I suspect those galaxies Uriel is capable of destroying (i.e wars he fought on galactic scale), are likely timelines where the wall was going to give out, so he cauterized the wound. Sheared the timeline off. I also wonder if this isn't the balance hell plays in hells bells, they do something to give angels room to act to destroy reality.

[groinkick]

yea.. and I suspect those galaxies Uriel is capable of destroying (i.e wars he fought on galactic scale), are likely timelines where the wall was going to give out, so he cauterized the wound. Sheared the timeline off. I also wonder if this isn't the balance hell plays in hells bells, they do something to give angels room to act to destroy reality.

I don't think the Angels need to destroy a reality where Outsiders invade because I think the Outsiders unmake that reality.  Empty Night.  No more reality.  However as we are going to learn from Mirror Mirror, realities are constantly being created.  New ones are being born all the time.  This is probably why the Outsiders consider them "noisy".  They keep multiplying, and the creation of each new reality probably creates some sort of shockwave that the Outsiders sense, or feel.

I see realities growing exponentially.

[The_Sibelis]

I don't think the Angels need to destroy a reality where Outsiders invade because I think the Outsiders unmake that reality.  Empty Night.  No more reality.  However as we are going to learn from Mirror Mirror, realities are constantly being created.  New ones are being born all the time.  This is probably why the Outsiders consider them "noisy".  They keep multiplying, and the creation of each new reality probably creates some sort of shockwave that the Outsiders sense, or feel.

I see realities growing exponentially.

yeah, I usually see it that way, but something in his post made me reconsider, if the point of taking the queens us to get to the mother's, then what they're really looking for is one opening that undoes all reality. If MS(because I kinda assume MW already is, but fights it proactively) became Nemfected, then as a being omnipresent, infected by another being apparently omnipresent then... What? All of MS's fall and ergo All reality? I consider the gates and mother's intrinsically connected, if there's truly only one of them, perhaps there's only one of the other?
Consider, if any of the fallen used to be archangels, like Uriel, with only one of them, then their fall effected all realities at the same time? And if this was effected by something happening in one specific reality, then multidimensional beings/creations are very much at risk inside a singular reality.

[Ed0517]

archangels and the mother's, per Woj, have only one distinct being that exists simultaneously in every timeline.

I thought it was each dimension had their own set of mothers, but there was one Uriel? I can't find it though

[The_Sibelis]

I thought it was each dimension had their own set of mothers, but there was one Uriel? I can't find it though

each has their own queen, who can "talk" between counterparts, but the mother's are singularly unique apparently.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

If the Outsiders get into one universe they can spread, so the White God will prune rather than lose in that universe.

The White God has been with Creation from Day One, the Mothers in whatever form have likely been around only since humanity evolved the concepts which they embody. They therefore may not have evolved to Full Intellectus without the mantels as belief splinters empowering many different deities, instead of one, rationing the power. The Mantles were formed from the power of several major deities, perhaps none of which developed Full Intellectus, the Fates may only have had an Intellectus about the people of Earth perhaps, not enough for the task at hand if it couldn’t cover non-humans, or other worlds.

Otherwise there is no need to create the Mantles.

[groinkick]

yeah, I usually see it that way, but something in his post made me reconsider, if the point of taking the queens us to get to the mother's, then what they're really looking for is one opening that undoes all reality. If MS(because I kinda assume MW already is, but fights it proactively) became Nemfected, then as a being omnipresent, infected by another being apparently omnipresent then... What?

Mother Winter is the original, Mother Summer is not, the previous stepped down.  So a Mother can be replaced.  Also when Jim was asked about Nemesis infecting an Angel, he stated that Nemesis isn't some omnipotent Being, It has limits.  Leah, who is not remotely on the same level as a Mother was able to resist It, long enough for Mab to help her.  I don't believe that Nemesis is capable of taking on something as big as one of the Mothers.  It's just not on that level.

I think it's more like they want a foothold, and for mortals to begin worshipping the Old Ones.

[The_Sibelis]

Mother Winter is the original, Mother Summer is not, the previous stepped down.  So a Mother can be replaced.  Also when Jim was asked about Nemesis infecting an Angel, he stated that Nemesis isn't some omnipotent Being, It has limits.  Leah, who is not remotely on the same level as a Mother was able to resist It, long enough for Mab to help her.

🤔 tell me something I don't know? Just because something can be replaced doesn't mean it isn't vital and can't be compromised. Stepping down is much different than becoming a twisted version of oneself. And where as specific things dictate what happens to queen's mantles, we don't know how well mechanismed they are. As you pointed out though, MS isn't the original, this means to me, she isn't pure in formation. How can she be immune to any of the things the courts are vulnerable to when she's the same sort? Nemesis can't effect things that are too absolute, the only thing this specifically applied to was archangels, but it really leaves alot open for interpretation That's a disconnect between host and spiritual entity, how can she be absolute when she's inherited her position and wears it?

  I don't believe that Nemesis is capable of taking on something as big as one of the Mothers.  It's just not on that level.
I think it's more like they want a foothold, and for mortals to begin worshipping the Old Ones.

heh, im thinking when we find out what the outer gates are a metaphor for, that's exactly what they do. Mother's don't have to be too big, nemesis is only dipping a toe in reality itself. An either it took out the 3rd sister of fate, compromised her, or just straight up IS her, but for any of those to have happened she'd have to be directly on par with, or capable of subverting mother level powers... It's already been done once.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

You can nemfect a Mother, infect a Lady and kill the Queen and wait.

Both Ladies were infected so that was a likely strategy.

[groinkick]

An either it took out the 3rd sister of fate

I don't think there was three.  I think Jim put his own spin.  There are 3 Fates.  Mother, Queen, Lady.  3 Fates for Winter, 3 Fates for Summer.  If there wasa 3rd Mother, what would she represent?  Not a season as the other 2 do.  A 3rd Mother would be out of place from the readers perspective.  There is a precise balance between Winter and Summer, and a 3rd Mother wouldn't make sense.


EDIT:  Unless before they took up Winter, and Summer, there were 3 Mothers, and the 3rd Mother leads the Fomor who Jim did say were defeated by the Sidhe.

[Second Aristh]

I don't think there was three.  I think Jim put his own spin.  There are 3 Fates.  Mother, Queen, Lady.  3 Fates for Winter, 3 Fates for Summer.  If there wasa 3rd Mother, what would she represent?  Not a season as the other 2 do.  A 3rd Mother would be out of place from the readers perspective.  There is a precise balance between Winter and Summer, and a 3rd Mother wouldn't make sense.


EDIT:  Unless before they took up Winter, and Summer, there were 3 Mothers, and the 3rd Mother leads the Fomor who Jim did say were defeated by the Sidhe.

Nah, I'm not a fan of the Fomor mother idea.  The Fates were seen as maiden/mother/crone triple deity.  That got split in half to get the six queens we know and  love.

[The_Sibelis]

I don't think there was three.  I think Jim put his own spin.  There are 3 Fates.  Mother, Queen, Lady.  3 Fates for Winter, 3 Fates for Summer.  If there wasa 3rd Mother, what would she represent?  Not a season as the other 2 do.  A 3rd Mother would be out of place from the readers perspective.  There is a precise balance between Winter and Summer, and a 3rd Mother wouldn't make sense.


EDIT:  Unless before they took up Winter, and Summer, there were 3 Mothers, and the 3rd Mother leads the Fomor who Jim did say were defeated by the Sidhe.

life, fate, all things to come, there's a reason they had to throw her @$$ out when free will came about. Lachesis the spinner, decided fate for everything, in some stories even the Gods Couldn't defy fate.
Lachesis IS in DF if only apparent by her noticable absence. Her spin wheel actually made an appearance in SK, something I chalk up to one of those object/mantles MW seems to collect as trophies for particular kills.
As for a third not making sense, of course not, but as you say, they weren't originally formed as they are.. they created the courts later, those are not the original forms of them, least not the mother's who would actually matter on the right scale. Summer and Winter are smaller aspects of themselves they broke off.
Or on another wavelength, Norse mythology is fire and ice consuming the world makes a third power, Water. Kinda fomory that.
Slightly off topic tin foil theory

(click to show/hide)

the missing fate and her connection to Nemesis (the goddess) I think are key elements in the DF. They tore her apart and broke down the different aspects and gave them out in different places. One piece of which I think, is wizardy itself. Magical the vessel for which Lachesis enforced fate would make alot of sense compared to the mythology. Wizards only get in trouble from violation of free will, the murphyonic effect is a basic byproduct of lady luck,  alot of the bad guys are trying to recreate that image of a powerful young female wizard whose slightly unbalanced, ect.

[morriswalters]

Jim says no on splitting Hecate up and down. There either something we haven't seen or something hiding in plain sight. Maybe the Gates. The cottage may be part and parcel of the Mother's identity. Which may be why we never see them out of it.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Mantles were additive, they didn’t divide, so the power of the Fates and Hecate were poured into their creation, at a minimum. The Queens and Ladies were less powerful than a god such as Hades or Odin no longer allowed in the real world fully manifest, but the Mothers are more powerful, and definitely cannot leave the Never Never.

We certainly haven’t found everything which went into the creation of the Mantles or how and why they were created, we might be surprised who else donated their power but I wouldn’t be surprised if Athena and Artemis didn’t put the bulk of their power in the Mantles as well.indeed I suspect the majority of the female members of the Greek Pantheon contributed to the Mantles , to make the OP Mothers.

[The_Sibelis]

What is this Woj on Hecate not "splitting up or down"? Context?