Is Cassius death curse in effect already?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Nick needed Hannah Ascher for a specific job, and he needed Lasciel to take out Harry.

[Mira]

Nick needed Hannah Ascher for a specific job, and he needed Lasciel to take out Harry.

I think Lasciel wanted to take out Harry and Hannah with her grudge against Harry was the perfect fit..

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Yes, to an extent Nick is manipulating the more powerful Denarians to keep them in line, giving them what they want, or keeping them on ice or marrying them. They are not a homogeneous body.

Thorned working with Marcone is a case in point, I suspect Nick gave Thorned weak hosts, and kept him on ice and isolated when he didn’t need him for the big stuff. His time with Marcone where he has been out of the box and had a strong host who cooperates with him like Nick and Anduriel, May be the best time he has had in 2,000 years.

[Mira]

Yes, to an extent Nick is manipulating the more powerful Denarians to keep them in line, giving them what they want, or keeping them on ice or marrying them. They are not a homogeneous body.

Thorned working with Marcone is a case in point, I suspect Nick gave Thorned weak hosts, and kept him on ice and isolated when he didn’t need him for the big stuff. His time with Marcone where he has been out of the box and had a strong host who cooperates with him like Nick and Anduriel, May be the best time he has had in 2,000 years.

I agree, then again, Marcone is also strong, if their agendas don't mesh, he is strong enough to resist Namshiel.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Namshiel obviously thinks that Marcone could drop his coin just like that.

[Mira]

Namshiel obviously thinks that Marcone could drop his coin just like that.

I'd agree, but Marcone also knows he doesn't have that much magical talent without Namshiel, it is a match made in Hell you might say...

[Basil]

Cassius' death curse is in effect, but also ineffective.  As Malcolm pointed out, Death is a Door one person wide.  Cassius might as well as cursed Harry to live for all the good/harm it would do.

As to Marcone, I believe he has the strength of will to drop the coin in an instant, if he believes the benefits no longer outweigh the costs. 

However, I wonder if he could still do magic if he dropped the coin.  My suspicion is that, yes he could.  I don't really think that the coins allow you do to things that you couldn't do yourself -- if you had the knowledge, training, etc.  The coins are massive short-cuts to power, not the power itself.

Take the shapeshifting.  Sure, Ursiel and Magog's hosts can turn into very impressive battle forms of grape apes and giant demon bears.  BUT, we know that the Alphas can do something very similar, on a smaller scale.  Perhaps the Alphas could turn into giant demon bears if they worked on that.  We know they are trying to see if they can use their shapeshifting to do other things -- like rapid healing. 

Perhaps Marcone had the tiniest bit of magical talents.  Another person with that same amount of talent has neither the need, inclination, knowledge or will to develop that talent.  And so, even with a bit of dabbling, that person is going to die before bringing themselves up to an ordinary wizard level, let alone to the Senior Council level of ability.  Marcone get's a shortcut.  What would have taken him hundreds and hundreds of years has taken him a decade.

But, kind of like when you take a short cut in real life, if you've made it to your destination, there you are.  Maybe he couldn't do hellfire if he dropped the coin, but I think he could do anything else he learned how to do with Namshiel's assistance for himself. 

[Mira]

Take the shapeshifting.  Sure, Ursiel and Magog's hosts can turn into very impressive battle forms of grape apes and giant demon bears.  BUT, we know that the Alphas can do something very similar, on a smaller scale.  Perhaps the Alphas could turn into giant demon bears if they worked on that.  We know they are trying to see if they can use their shapeshifting to do other things -- like rapid healing.

I don't think so, the Alphas didn't need the coin to turn, and so far none of them have even tried to be other than what they are, werewolves.  As far as Marcone goes, at the end of the day, a wizard needs talent to power his spells.  The more talent, the more power, Thomas did say that everyone has some talent, but that doesn't make everyone potential wizards.  I think if Marcone had that kind of talent he would have used it to his advantage long before he picked up a coin.  If he dropped the coin he may still have the knowledge, but he'd lack the power to do any of the spells.

  Or a better example, when the Shadow of Lachiel was in Harry's head, he could understand many languages, read them, even speak them, after Lash sacrificed herself, he cannot do that, nor can he create Hell Fire anymore, though he can create fire..  That is the temptation of the coin, if you could do these things without the coin, why would you be tempted to pick it up?

[Basil]

I don't think so, the Alphas didn't need the coin to turn, and so far none of them have even tried to be other than what they are, werewolves.  As far as Marcone goes, at the end of the day, a wizard needs talent to power his spells.  The more talent, the more power, Thomas did say that everyone has some talent, but that doesn't make everyone potential wizards.  I think if Marcone had that kind of talent he would have used it to his advantage long before he picked up a coin.  If he dropped the coin he may still have the knowledge, but he'd lack the power to do any of the spells.

  Or a better example, when the Shadow of Lachiel was in Harry's head, he could understand many languages, read them, even speak them, after Lash sacrificed herself, he cannot do that, nor can he create Hell Fire anymore, though he can create fire..  That is the temptation of the coin, if you could do these things without the coin, why would you be tempted to pick it up?

My point is that the Alphas are proof that you don't need a coin.  I think that Alphas could turn into giant demon bears or grape apes -- just like Listens to Wind -- if they worked on it.  The Alphas are working on other stuff, just not grape apes, according to them.  Frankly, why would they?  wolves are almost ideal predators if you have a pack.  Grey proved to me that giant demon bears are not that practical. 

Harry could learn to speak all sorts of languages too -- if he worked on it -- I can't be bothered to learn Spanish, not because of an lack of use for it, but because I'm too lazy.  But, I'd take a Matrix download of Spanish in a heartbeat. 

In short, the temptation of the Coin is NOT the skills or the power per se, it's that they get to skip the hardship of EARNING those skills.  Hellfire might be the one exception.  You might not be able to channel Hellfire without that demonic bargain, whether express or implicit. 

In short, Marcone could become a Senior Council level wizard -- but he doesn't have the six hundred years of life and hard work it would take.  A Coin is a great short cut, so he gives into the temptation.  His further temptation is that if he could do X in a decade, what could he do with infinity?  I'm sure Namshiel TELLS him that if he ever gave the coin up, he couldn't do X anymore.  If Marcone believes him, then he won't be able to do X.  But, personally, I think it's a lie.  Once you learn to tie your shoes, magically speaking, you can. 

This actually ties into Alera a bit too, potentially rising to the level of a "theme" of Jim Butcher (a weight lifter and martial artist, I might add).  In the early books, the injustice we feel on behalf of Tavi  is NOT that the Aquitaines have nearly god-like power, it is the injustice that it seems to come so easily to them because of their blood while Tavi, who wants it very bad, works very hard and is admirable in almost every respect is denied that same power. 

In fact, we are not really shown any powerful crafter working on being a powerful crafter -- not even the students in Academ's Fury.  I would suggest that this was intentional on Butcher's part, to keep our sense of injustice well stoked.  In fact, Academ's Fury raised my sense of injustice because it just seemed as if the crafting rich got richer.   

After we have Tavi's training montage where Alera herself trains him (though much failure and hypothermia), we learn that even Invidia went through a lot of hardship and training as her father (whoever he was) sent her to learn from numerous master crafters and artisans to refine her skill over the course of years.

Then, as Alera's final act, she agrees to implement Tavi's merit based crafting program where humans will be limited only by their own expectations, desire and hardwork.  Injustice solved for all time. 

[Mira]

My point is that the Alphas are proof that you don't need a coin.  I think that Alphas could turn into giant demon bears or grape apes -- just like Listens to Wind -- if they worked on it.  The Alphas are working on other stuff, just not grape apes, according to them.  Frankly, why would they?  wolves are almost ideal predators if you have a pack.  Grey proved to me that giant demon bears are not that practical.

Yes, but not everyone can become an Alpha, there is some other stuff going on as well.  If you don't have that pre-existing talent, without a coin, I don't think it is going to happen.  I think the bigger question is why do you think you need to turn into anything with the power and strength that comes with it?  That is the temptation, Nic is very careful to match potential hosts with their coins, he had good reasons to match Lasciel with Harry.

Harry could learn to speak all sorts of languages too -- if he worked on it -- I can't be bothered to learn Spanish, not because of an lack of use for it, but because I'm too lazy.  But, I'd take a Matrix download of Spanish in a heartbeat.

Yes, if he worked at it, but then again how many people teach conversational Etruscan these days?  Yes, with Lasciel's help Harry could and was able to understand the Ghouls.

In short, the temptation of the Coin is NOT the skills or the power per se, it's that they get to skip the hardship of EARNING those skills.  Hellfire might be the one exception.  You might not be able to channel Hellfire without that demonic bargain, whether express or implicit. 

No, reread the conversations between Lasciel and Harry, even after he mastered Hell Fire etc., she was tempting him with more power.. It isn't about earning those skills, Harry already had a pretty good fire spell, he had learned and earned it, Hell Fire really wasn't a short cut for him at all.

In short, Marcone could become a Senior Council level wizard -- but he doesn't have the six hundred years of life and hard work it would take.  A Coin is a great short cut, so he gives into the temptation.  His further temptation is that if he could do X in a decade, what could he do with infinity?  I'm sure Namshiel TELLS him that if he ever gave the coin up, he couldn't do X anymore.  If Marcone believes him, then he won't be able to do X.  But, personally, I think it's a lie.  Once you learn to tie your shoes, magically speaking, you can. 

No, you pretty much lose whatever skill you got with the bargain.  Look as Cassius, first things first, when he gave up his coin, he started to age rather rapidly to whatever his real age was.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Marcone is not noted as having a major magical gift, and I don’t think a Denarian can make a gift larger, but they can focus it. The Shapeshifting is part of the Denarian power set, it is part of their powers but require a human to access it.

Marcone shouldn’t have been able to undertake the magic that he did, he simply couldn’t supply the level of power and no matter the level of focus he couldn’t make up for that. Somehow Marcone and Namshiel have figured a cheat, Marcone has perhaps taken another practitioners magic as the Nightmare did to Harry, or several practitioners building it up bit by bit.

Perhaps Marcone purchased it, a free will transaction acceptable to Namshiels free will limitations, Namshiel would know which talents were useful and could be fit together to make a more powerful whole he could train up. That would be very Marcone, buying his way to more power and would certainly appeal to a magic nerd like Namshiel, as it may be a novel solution to his reliance upon Nick providing suitably qualified hosts

[Mira]

Marcone is not noted as having a major magical gift, and I don’t think a Denarian can make a gift larger, but they can focus it. The Shapeshifting is part of the Denarian power set, it is part of their powers but require a human to access it.

Marcone shouldn’t have been able to undertake the magic that he did, he simply couldn’t supply the level of power and no matter the level of focus he couldn’t make up for that. Somehow Marcone and Namshiel have figured a cheat, Marcone has perhaps taken another practitioners magic as the Nightmare did to Harry, or several practitioners building it up bit by bit.

Perhaps Marcone purchased it, a free will transaction acceptable to Namshiels free will limitations, Namshiel would know which talents were useful and could be fit together to make a more powerful whole he could train up. That would be very Marcone, buying his way to more power and would certainly appeal to a magic nerd like Namshiel, as it may be a novel solution to his reliance upon Nick providing suitably qualified hosts

I agree, I also think this is something Marcone worked up to over the last few years.  If Namshiel's Shadow was in his head, much like Lasciel's Shadow was in Harry's head, he could have been taken step by step as to how to get the most mileage once he actually accepted the coin.  Face it, Marcone has been lusting for that kind of power ever since Harry blasted the doors off his club back in Storm Front.

[Basil]

I suppose I need to try to be a bit clearer.  I'm not saying that the Fallen don't have real power, they do.  But, primarily what they offer to any of their hosts -- even Magog -- is knowledge.  Cheat codes for existence, for the small price of your soul. 

The Fallen are consummate liars as well.  The exaggerate and misrepresent what they actually do.  The purpose of these lies seem to get their hooks into you more and more, until you submit to being an actual agent of Hell. 

Let's say that the Fallen teach you to shape shift into a Grape Ape.  Grape Apes are awesome and lots of fun -- you get to throw barrels at little Italian plumbers and stuff all day.  But, the Fallen says -- if you toss my coin, you'll never be Kong again.  You believe the Fallen, because you couldn't do that before the Fallen.  Now you use or toss the Coin and because of your mistaken beliefs you can't go Kong anymore because you don't believe that you can.  Dumbo's magic feather.  You might know how to do it still -- in fact, I think you do -- but you don't believe that you can do it, and belief is all important to doing magic. 

Harry actually talks about this concept all the time, but he rarely thinks about its wider application. His duel with Hannah Lasher is an exception.  He contemplated that Hannah believed that she was more powerful because of Lasciel, but really it was because Lasciel riled up her rage.  Hannah could have learned to do even more potent fire magic on her own.  Harry exposes the "cheat code" approach for what it really is, because while Hannah's attack was more potent that Harry's defenses, Hannah didn't have the depth of experience and broader skill that comes with hard work.  And so, Harry essentially tricks Hannah into killing herself.

Yes, but not everyone can become an Alpha, there is some other stuff going on as well.  If you don't have that pre-existing talent, without a coin, I don't think it is going to happen.  I think the bigger question is why do you think you need to turn into anything with the power and strength that comes with it?  That is the temptation, Nic is very careful to match potential hosts with their coins, he had good reasons to match Lasciel with Harry.

Are we sure that not everyone can become an Alpha? Because the odds of a half-dozen or so friends at one particular college in Chicago learning to become werewolves at exactly the same time is pretty unlikely -- unless, literally anyone can do it if they have a teacher. 

Further, while Nic is "picky" about his flunkies, Tessa is notably the opposite.  She'll give a coin to whoever, seeing the people as disposable.

Yes, if he worked at it, but then again how many people teach conversational Etruscan these days?  Yes, with Lasciel's help Harry could and was able to understand the Ghouls.

Yes, precisely.  And, keep in mind Lash didn't actually TEACH Etruscan or Ghoul, she just translated UN style for him.  Now that she's gone, so is his translator.  She could have taught Harry Etruscan, but it probably would have taken a few weeks or months.  If she had, Harry would still know how to speak Etruscan. 

I think that if you review their time together, Lash constantly OFFERS to teach Harry things, if he only formally takes up the Coin.  But, she actually teaches him very little. 

She did teach him a pain suppression technique, which he has used since Lash departed.  She rarely gives away knowledge, as its her only lever.

No, you pretty much lose whatever skill you got with the bargain.  Look as Cassius, first things first, when he gave up his coin, he started to age rather rapidly to whatever his real age was.

Is that what really happened? Or is that just what Cassius believed happened?  After having been told for two-thousand years that he would age and swiftly die if he lost his Coin, did he come to believe and then his belief made it real? 

He didn't loose all of his Coin-acquired skills either as he could still do magic and produced a death curse at the end. 

One more metaphor to suggest somewhat of a compromise or synthesis of our theories:

Let's say I've been cast in a new movie -- the 600 Hundred -- which will be like 300 but with twice as many people.  I'm a big guy, but sadly a bit doughy around the middle now that I'm closing in on 50.  I could get back into shape, but it might take three or four years.  Besides, I don't myself have the knowledge about fitness and diet, etc. to turn myself into a Hollywood Spartan and just figuring all of that out could take me years all on its own.  Thankfully, the studio has that knowledge -- personal trainers, chefs and ... ahem ... pharmacologists eager and willing to help.  In six months time, they whip me into shape so that I don't look out of place next to Leonidas or Creepy Persian Man.  Now, replace those professionals with Fallen Angels telling me exactly what to eat, how much and when and knowing exactly what exercises, weights, reps and times will give maximum results.  Now, instead of being movie buff, I'm super human essentially and the star of the movie now.   

After the movie is over, the trainers, chefs and drug dealers have all left (or alternatively the Fallen Angel). I can't keep up that level of fitness anymore.  But, I've learned a ton and with some effort I can keep it up at least to a degree.  Maybe I can't be as fit as I was with those true professionals guiding me each step of the way, but I'm a great deal more fit than I was before they came and left.

[Mira]

After the movie is over, the trainers, chefs and drug dealers have all left (or alternatively the Fallen Angel). I can't keep up that level of fitness anymore.  But, I've learned a ton and with some effort I can keep it up at least to a degree.  Maybe I can't be as fit as I was with those true professionals guiding me each step of the way, but I'm a great deal more fit than I was before they came and left.

It doesn't work that way, I think the text is pretty clear on that.  Say you are thirty when you take up the coin, you physically stay thirty as long as you host the coin.  Give up the coin say when you are ninety, your body reverts to a ninety year old body.  It doesn't happen all at once, as in instantly but over several months your body will eventually become what ever age it is supposed to be.  That is what was happening to Cassius, no amount of exercise and diet is going to stop it.  Perhaps for a while, but a ninety year old body has it's limitations.

[Basil]

To be clear, we have exactly one instance of the "Cassius Effect."  We don't have any other person who has lost a coin in such circumstances.

I believe, we only have two authentic coin droppers and two pseudo-coin droppers.

Cassius -- uniquely gave up a coin while he was cornered to save his life after two-thousand years or so
Sanya -- gave up Magog's coin willingly.  Of course, either way he wouldn't suffer from the Cassius Effect since he only had the coin only a few years.

Nicodemus -- gave up the Coin strategically, knowing it would be temporary.
Harry -- never took up the coin, technically. 

I'm 100% certain that Saluriel told Cassius that if he gave up the coin or lost it or had it taken from him, whatever technique or ability allowed Cassius's life to be preserved would be lost.  I'm 100% certain that Cassius believed as well.  I'm not at all certain that Cassius' belief itself didn't cause the "Cassius Effect." 

While we only have one true instance of the Cassius Effect in the Series we have MANY instances of an individual's iron-held belief -- sometimes mistaken -- allowing them to do something they shouldn't be ordinarily able to do; or, keeping them from doing something that they ought to do.  I could even include several of Michael's Sword-less miracles on this list. 

This has happened to Harry several times -- where his own subconscious mind (not black-clad Id Harry) turns against him and he's unable to do "ordinary" things like light candles.