White Council Top Members

[Con]

The only other Wardens we know by name are Bjorn and Luccio.

[morriswalters]

You get to be high in the Wardens by having survived the Reds.  Just in Dead Beat 143 wardens were killed. So Chandler or Carlos being high in the pantheon of the Wardens is more about having survived then anything else.

On Harry's relative power or danger level there isn't really anybody that could challenge him on his ground fighting his fight. On Demonreach you'd be at hazard from both the environment which Harry can control, or of being sent to bad boy time out.  In Chicago he is on his turf backed by his allies.  And if he thinks before he fights he even more dangerous. He anticipated Eb in the fight at the dock and made preparations to win against the Blackstaff.  Which he did.  He then fought Lara and Freya and never broke a sweat.

[Mira]

You get to be high in the Wardens by having survived the Reds.  Just in Dead Beat 143 wardens were killed. So Chandler or Carlos being high in the pantheon of the Wardens is more about having survived then anything else.

You have to include Harry in that group as well.  The war with the Reds in many ways really screwed up the Warden command structure and power curve.  When the war broke out the above named Wardens were all considered "young" Wardens, but so many of them were wiped out, they became "senior."  We have Harry in that horrible flash back where the ghouls captured and went feasting on young Warden trainees and Harry totally lost it.  The thing I remember about that is they were all described as being teenagers, which means they were little more than young apprentices.  If it is true that Harry being named "full wizard" at the age of sixteen was unusual, then these kids were either exceptional young wizards, or sacrificed as little more than cannon fodder.. Or can young apprentices chose to be future Wardens and were in the White Council's equivalent of the ROTC?  And if so, was the White Council so hard up, that like the "Children's Crusade" or when the South emptied local military schools to fight, these kids were pressed into battles in which they had no chance?

[Con]

You get to be high in the Wardens by having survived the Reds.  Just in Dead Beat 143 wardens were killed. So Chandler or Carlos being high in the pantheon of the Wardens is more about having survived then anything else.

On Harry's relative power or danger level there isn't really anybody that could challenge him on his ground fighting his fight. On Demonreach you'd be at hazard from both the environment which Harry can control, or of being sent to bad boy time out.  In Chicago he is on his turf backed by his allies.  And if he thinks before he fights he even more dangerous. He anticipated Eb in the fight at the dock and made preparations to win against the Blackstaff.  Which he did.  He then fought Lara and Freya and never broke a sweat.

Agreed, on every point. Particularly know he has his own magical castle.

You have to include Harry in that group as well.  The war with the Reds in many ways really screwed up the Warden command structure and power curve.  When the war broke out the above named Wardens were all considered "young" Wardens, but so many of them were wiped out, they became "senior."  We have Harry in that horrible flash back where the ghouls captured and went feasting on young Warden trainees and Harry totally lost it.  The thing I remember about that is they were all described as being teenagers, which means they were little more than young apprentices.  If it is true that Harry being named "full wizard" at the age of sixteen was unusual, then these kids were either exceptional young wizards, or sacrificed as little more than cannon fodder.. Or can young apprentices chose to be future Wardens and were in the White Council's equivalent of the ROTC?  And if so, was the White Council so hard up, that like the "Children's Crusade" or when the South emptied local military schools to fight, these kids were pressed into battles in which they had no chance?

I remember thinking that about the 16 year olds at the time, but then at the same time I thought given the number of Supernatural stuff marketed to teenagers. Harry Potter, Twilight, Vampire Diaries so on and so forth.

[groinkick]

Was just thinking about this and how the discussion may be too one dimensional.  Wizard power is but one power source.  The Gatekeeper may be the most dangerous, not because of his wizard capabilities but because of a Mantle he has.  The same could be said for any others. 

Look at Harry.  He can tap into the Winter Knight Mantle, utilize the Island, and it's prisoners, has a god killing weapon, and the spear.  This also doesn't take into account of favors owed by powerful Beings that one can get.  Harry for example could probably get an incredible amount of power if he offered to release a prisoner.

So this in my opinion makes it a little difficult to measure true power because we don't know what power the Council members are tapping into.  I believe Jim mentioned Listen's to Wind's shapeshifting ability is connected to a Mantle he has.  So his awesome shape shifting abilities might not be entirely from being a wizard. 

Looking at how the Wizards nature is to learn, gain power, and be secretive, it's really difficult to know where their natural power ends, and where another source of power begins. 

[Mira]

I remember thinking that about the 16 year olds at the time, but then at the same time I thought given the number of Supernatural stuff marketed to teenagers. Harry Potter, Twilight, Vampire Diaries so on and so forth.

Then again, those kids were captured, tortured, and eaten by those ghouls in short order, that is what set Harry off to the point where he totally lost it.  Of course it didn't help that Lasciel's shadow was stoking his rage, but I think even if she wasn't in his head he still would of lost it.  What happened to those kids was that horrible.

Was just thinking about this and how the discussion may be too one dimensional.  Wizard power is but one power source.  The Gatekeeper may be the most dangerous, not because of his wizard capabilities but because of a Mantle he has.  The same could be said for any others.

We don't even know what Mantle the Gatekeeper carries, if he carries any.  All we know is he traded in one of his eyes for a Nemesis detector made of the same material as the Outer Gates.. We know he can also tell what might happen in the future with it.  That is he can see odds, not the future exactly, as in Turn Coat, when Harry was on the boat, Rashid did his eye thing and told Harry what his chances were, then when Harry hopped onto the island, Rashid saw a different future. Mantles also are not the same, Eb and Rashid both call being the Warden of Demonreach a Mantle, yet off the island it has a limit, as in with power boost, the shores of Lake Michigan, beyond which it is merely a title.  The mantles of the Queens, Ladies, and Knights seem to have no limit.. However in the case of the Knights, they can numb pain, but not prevent serious injury.

[groinkick]

We don't even know what Mantle the Gatekeeper carries, if he carries any.  All we know is he traded in one of his eyes for a Nemesis detector made of the same material as the Outer Gates.. We know he can also tell what might happen in the future with it.  That is he can see odds, not the future exactly, as in Turn Coat, when Harry was on the boat, Rashid did his eye thing and told Harry what his chances were, then when Harry hopped onto the island, Rashid saw a different future.

He watches the Outer Gates and is called "The Gate Keeper".  Almost positive that it's an actual Mantle of power.  I tend to think of it as a Winter Mantle but it could be a Summer one.

Mantles also are not the same, Eb and Rashid both call being the Warden of Demonreach a Mantle, yet off the island it has a limit, as in with power boost, the shores of Lake Michigan, beyond which it is merely a title.  The mantles of the Queens, Ladies, and Knights seem to have no limit.. However in the case of the Knights, they can numb pain, but not prevent serious injury.

All Mantles have some sort of limit.  Harry's is leaving the Island.  Mab is getting stabbed with Iron.  Do that and she can't use her power.

[Mira]

He watches the Outer Gates and is called "The Gate Keeper".  Almost positive that it's an actual Mantle of power.  I tend to think of it as a Winter Mantle but it could be a Summer one.

Or unique in that it is a Mantle that serves both Courts, more likely the Mothers.  One theory that I believe has legs is that his "eye" is the eye that the three Fates shared to see the future, Mother Winter responded to the name, Atropos, which was the name of one of the three sisters. 

[Second Aristh]

I don't think they were really dedicated bodyguards for the most part. Chandler  is usually around the Seniors, yes, and guarding Ways, but Bill Meyers was a regular Warden down towards Texas, Harry was his boss. Carlos was western regional commander. Having Carlos and Bill get called up to a US fight is nothing odd. Until the last couple of books had we even seen Yoshimo? We had referenced her, when Harry was researching the ancestry of the Knights of the Cross. But just in a letter. They were NOT in the guard detail that went to Demonreach, and it should be expected Mai would have called in some heavies for that. And really, do we know where Chandler ranked? We know he had Carlos and Bill. Chandler is a guess.

Ramirez was in charge and got to pick the security detail, so he went with wardens he was comfortable working with and that were good in a fight.  It's why he approached Harry in PT to join the security detail.

We also know that Chandler is a very trusted warden by WoJ.  He's one of the few that gets solo guard duty for Edinburgh.  He's also allowed to pursue his time magic specialty, even though it skirts one of the Laws.




In the end, I think its pretty safe to say that Harry is in the top 15 most dangerous wizards after BG.  He's got plenty of raw power for a wizard.  He's (painstakingly) slowly improving his control and efficiency with magic.  He's got a long list of powerful entities where he has a strong working relationship.  He has a fallback position where he's nearly invincible in Demonreach.  Plus, he has the Winter Knight's mantle to draw upon and to guard his physical flank.

Let's not forget that he went head to head against the WC's top enforcer in PT.  Neither was going for the kill directly, but they weren't just sparring for fun either.  While Harry didn't win that fight, one mistake on either side could have changed the outcome easily.  In a fair fight (not that those actually exist in this series), Harry is definitely a big-ish fish in the WC.

[Mira]

Ramirez was in charge and got to pick the security detail, so he went with wardens he was comfortable working with and that were good in a fight.  It's why he approached Harry in PT to join the security detail.

Ordinarily I'd agree, but I think it was a bit more complicated than that.  I don't think Carlos approached Harry to be part of the security detail because he is good in a fight, though on the surface Harry is an obvious choice.  No, it was when he came to inform him he was on the detail that Carlos secretly slapped the tracking tab on Harry..  No, mostly it was a ruse so they could keep a close eye on him, and this was before Thomas did what he did.

[groinkick]

Let's not forget that he went head to head against the WC's top enforcer in PT.  Neither was going for the kill directly, but they weren't just sparring for fun either.  While Harry didn't win that fight, one mistake on either side could have changed the outcome easily.  In a fair fight (not that those actually exist in this series), Harry is definitely a big-ish fish in the WC.

He didn't go head to head with Eb in a magical duel.  It was a duel with staves.  The moment Eb got too angry he killed fake Harry with magic.

[Second Aristh]

Ordinarily I'd agree, but I think it was a bit more complicated than that.  I don't think Carlos approached Harry to be part of the security detail because he is good in a fight, though on the surface Harry is an obvious choice.  No, it was when he came to inform him he was on the detail that Carlos secretly slapped the tracking tab on Harry..  No, mostly it was a ruse so they could keep a close eye on him, and this was before Thomas did what he did.

I wouldn’t say mostly it was to keep an eye on Harry, but two birds one stone is always nice.

He didn't go head to head with Eb in a magical duel.  It was a duel with staves.  The moment Eb got too angry he killed fake Harry with magic.

Of course he did. They threw spells around, and Harry presses his physical advantage by closing in with frosty flooring and staff fighting.
Harry would have lost a purely magical duel, but there aren’t any of those outside an Accords duel. The point is Harry put up a respectable fight against the WC’s top enforcer. He’d stand a better chance against weaker opponents, i.e. most every other wizard in the world.

[Mira]

Of course he did. They threw spells around, and Harry presses his physical advantage by closing in with frosty flooring and staff fighting.
Harry would have lost a purely magical duel, but there aren’t any of those outside an Accords duel. The point is Harry put up a respectable fight against the WC’s top enforcer. He’d stand a better chance against weaker opponents, i.e. most every other wizard in the world.

Until the end that is, we don't know how much Eb was holding back until he totally lost it.

[Con]

Harry would have lost a purely magical duel, but there aren’t any of those outside an Accords duel. The point is Harry put up a respectable fight against the WC’s top enforcer. He’d stand a better chance against weaker opponents, i.e. most every other wizard in the world.

Agreed.

Until the end that is, we don't know how much Eb was holding back until he totally lost it.

I mean if he had Blackstaff he could have straight up killed him, but yeah it was more than a friendly sparring match. Harry held his own is the point, puts his combat abilities in the top 10.

[Basil]

I'm going to be a bit contrarian here.  I don't think Harry is actually that good at magical combat.  I'll bet that he's maybe top 50 in the council, which considering their casualties over the past ten years is not as great as it seems. 

To use a combat sport analogy to explain, I'd say that Harry is a good puncher, but not a good boxer.  Like a lot of very hard hitters, it's a crutch for him and he leans on it way too much.  His duel with Hannah Asher was quite ironic, given that he was essentially fighting himself from only a few years prior.   

We've seen several examples of far less -- let's use the word energetic, rather than powerful -- practitioners demonstrate that they could be more than a match for Harry. 

It's actually a good thing for the narrative that he is so bad.  Given the potential power he wields, if he were also very skilled, it would lower the stakes.