Could Dresden have been wrong about Thorned?

[morriswalters]

Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments–exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.

(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn’t infallible.  Just way closer to infallible than us.)

Which of course means if the way had been cleared Mab cleared it.

Four attackers, this time. Four of them at least.

So four came and were detected by the web.

And they grabbed her. The Reaper and the Scarecrow. And they carried her out the door. She was screaming…” He bit his lip. “I tried to stop them, but Hammerhand chased me.

Just to make the record clear this all occurs before the event's of the Fool Moon Garage which means the Scarecrow was already here.

[Second Aristh]

Which of course means if the way had been cleared Mab cleared it.

So four came and were detected by the web.

Just to make the record clear this all occurs before the event's of the Fool Moon Garage which means the Scarecrow was already here.

The Scarecrow was at the Fool Moon garage roughly the same time that Molly was being abducted.  Harry's web spell detected the fetches, Harry sends them to the fear beacon Molly, and Harry gets abducted by Madrigal Raith after polishing off a stray fetch at the convention.  Madrigal takes Harry to the garage where the Scarecrow attacks while the other fetches abduct Molly from the Carpenter home.

Mab definitely allowed Harry and company access to Arctis Tor, but that didn't require her to sacrifice her elite troll guards.  I don't think you're saying this, but the Arctis Tor attack doesn't seem to be Mab's idea.  More like something where she outmaneuvered someone else.

[morriswalters]

What the text said is sufficient to me. Thorned Namshiel did the deed.  There is a backstory involving the Circle or whoever. But one of the  primary mysteries is why didn't Mab retaliate? That attack is why. Jim obscures the timing of the attack but it can't be earlier then mid Dead Beat and it happened before Harry got there in PG. It's notable that Summer didn't appear to know about the attack or the fact that Lea was on ice.  You might think that Mab was keeping it secret out of concern for what Summer might do.

[Mira]

What the text said is sufficient to me. Thorned Namshiel did the deed.  There is a backstory involving the Circle or whoever. But one of the  primary mysteries is why didn't Mab retaliate? That attack is why. Jim obscures the timing of the attack but it can't be earlier then mid Dead Beat and it happened before Harry got there in PG. It's notable that Summer didn't appear to know about the attack or the fact that Lea was on ice.  You might think that Mab was keeping it secret out of concern for what Summer might do.

Revenge is a dish best served cold,  when you are immortal you can afford to take your time.. Mab will wait until the time is right.  Look how long it took her to get back at Nic, also it may not only have been for Marcone that she did it.

[The_Sibelis]

Again, and I don't know how clearer to pronounce this, the attack doesn't explain why mab doesn't later retaliate, which is the key question levied by everyone about the situation. This is why the whamps are capturing little folk in WK, to measure there response. Because someone did something they well know should have gotten an eventual response, but it never did.

[Mira]

Again, and I don't know how clearer to pronounce this, the attack doesn't explain why mab doesn't later retaliate, which is the key question levied by everyone about the situation. This is why the whamps are capturing little folk in WK, to measure there response. Because someone did something they well know should have gotten an eventual response, but it never did.

Was it?  The impression I got was the the White Court were enslaving for lack of a better word the Little Folk because they are mostly disregarded by either the Winter or the Summer Court.  Mab calls them "the lowest," in Summer Knight so I doubt the White Court were trying to measure whether or not they'd get a rise out of either Mab or Titania on the matter.  They were actually a bit surprised that Harry objected and demanded their release if I remember correctly.  It is because he cared when no one else did that Harry has their fierce loyalty according to Toot.

You can say that by humiliating Nic, forcing him to sacrifice his daughter was pretty good retaliation.  Yes, Marcone supposedly was the reason, but I wouldn't be shocked if she had other reasons as in payback for the attack.  One reason is though she might know that Namshiel used hell fire on Arctis Tor, she also knows he wouldn't have been the one behind the attack. 

[The_Sibelis]

Was it?  The impression I got was the the White Court were enslaving for lack of a better word the Little Folk because they are mostly disregarded by either the Winter or the Summer Court.  Mab calls them "the lowest," in Summer Knight so I doubt the White Court were trying to measure whether or not they'd get a rise out of either Mab or Titania on the matter.  They were actually a bit surprised that Harry objected and demanded their release if I remember correctly.  It is because he cared when no one else did that Harry has their fierce loyalty according to Toot.

yes, Harry even confronts them about that being there reason. Get a rise, measure the response, whichever way you say it, you just agreed with the premise. Although I wouldn't say enslaved, they just captured them, they didn't put them to work.

[morriswalters]

Mab has had her revenge on everyone she can find.  The plan and attack that started in Grave Peril, is defeated, finally, in Cold Days.  Nemesis ploy has been defeated. The Reds are all dead. That attack cost her a Knight and her daughter and crippled Lea.

In Proven Guilty, at her weakest, she fears an attack by Summer and has been attacked by the Phantom Menace. She is concealing her weakness from her enemies both real and imagined. She smiles at the end because Harry has done what she couldn't do, reveal what Summer would do were she to remove her troops from the border.

Lara is testing Mab's limits when she uses the fairies as lanterns.

[The_Sibelis]

The Reds are all dead

yep, by Harry's hand. Mab even admits she let Lea have more reign in CH because of the recompense she was owed. But again the off thing is why she didn't move to get recompense in the way everyone expected her to. In the most vital way, she passed that debt along to someone else. A very fairy thing to do if say, you made a deal not to retaliate on a matter.

[Mira]

Lara is testing Mab's limits when she uses the fairies as lanterns.

Did she?  Mab hasn't done a thing about that, in fact it sounds like she continues to owe Lara.  When Harry demanded the little folk be freed he wasn't the Winter Knight.  Toot may wear Winter Colors now, but his allegiance is to the Za'Lord..

yes, Harry even confronts them about that being there reason. Get a rise, measure the response, whichever way you say it, you just agreed with the premise. Although I wouldn't say enslaved, they just captured them, they didn't put them to work.

But Harry wasn't Winter Knight at the time, he didn't free them on behalf of Mab or in her name.. Harry did it because he felt it was the right thing to do, Mab had nothing to do with it.

[Second Aristh]

Mab has had her revenge on everyone she can find.  The plan and attack that started in Grave Peril, is defeated, finally, in Cold Days.  Nemesis ploy has been defeated. The Reds are all dead. That attack cost her a Knight and her daughter and crippled Lea.

In Proven Guilty, at her weakest, she fears an attack by Summer and has been attacked by the Phantom Menace. She is concealing her weakness from her enemies both real and imagined. She smiles at the end because Harry has done what she couldn't do, reveal what Summer would do were she to remove her troops from the border.

Lara is testing Mab's limits when she uses the fairies as lanterns.

The whole reason the big powers are freaking out in PG is because Mab was not allowing a joint faerie revenge on the Reds.  Instead, she kept forces on her borders to threaten Summer.  It confused Summer and prompted Eb to send Harry in to figure out what went screwy with Mab.

Arctis Tor is probably involved, but that whole battle is confusing.  It was bad enough to kill elite trolls, but not bad enough that Mab got nervous and called in border forces.  Not until Harry used Summer fire on the Winter Wellspring and basically did it for Mab (allowing for a one-time Summer attack on the Reds).  Everyone knew what Summer would do when Mab had a less threatening posture against them; that's not a mystery.

The explanation for why Mab didn't allow for retaliation can't be just "the Arctis Tor attack".  That's like asking why the sunset is red and answering "because of the atmosphere".  It's so incomplete that it doesn't really even answer the question.

[Mira]

The explanation for why Mab didn't allow for retaliation can't be just "the Arctis Tor attack".  That's like asking why the sunset is red and answering "because of the atmosphere".  It's so incomplete that it doesn't really even answer the question.

That doesn't mean she won't go in for covert retaliation for the attack on Arctis Tor, Marcone was just a good excuse and cover for her real motives.

[Second Aristh]

That doesn't mean she won't go in for covert retaliation for the attack on Arctis Tor, Marcone was just a good excuse and cover for her real motives.

Some Denarian (with hints that it was Namshiel) attacked Arctis Tor, but that's not the retaliation we're talking about.  The Reds violated Mab's and Titania's territories, and Mab didn't allow any retaliation against them in PG. 

In the usual sequence of events, both Summer and Winter go after the Reds immediately like Eb and the White Council were expecting.  This points to weird circumstances that we don't fully understand.

[morriswalters]

Exactly who would have led her troops and who would have protected Arctis Tor?

[Second Aristh]

Exactly who would have led her troops and who would have protected Arctis Tor?

Kringle, Cat Sith, Grimmalken, the Red Cap....  Those are just the characters where we have names.  Any of them could lead groups of Winter forces against rampires.

Edit:  Took out Sarissa.  On further thought, I don't think she could have herself led an attack against Reds.