Who summoned the Cornerhounds?

[Second Aristh]

No, I don't think Nemesis can hijack free will of a mortal.  However a mortal can be manipulated into calling up an Outsider by someone with an agenda like Lord Raith or Maeve.

Okay, but they weren't around Justine in PT?  I'm lost.

[Mira]

Okay, but they weren't around Justine in PT?  I'm lost.

Maeve and Lord Raith are examples of those who could manipulate a vanilla mortal to call up an Outsider.  Justine was infected/possessed, but she still is a mortal, so she could be manipulated to do it by HWWB.  Or heck I guess she may have even been able to manipulate the doorman if he had any talent at all to call the Cornerhounds up/

[groinkick]

The goal of the Outsiders is to end reality, and the Outer Gates defend reality.  Only mortals can summon Outsiders (so they get a free pass to skip the Gates).  In the situation where Nemesis can use a mortal host to summon outsiders, why not use that and go around reality's defenses to further the goal of destroying reality? 

I mean, it would make sense from the narrow perspective of PT for Justine to have summoned cornerhounds (sweeping any questions of magical ability for that under the rug for now), but in the wider world of Dresden, it doesn't fit what we're told about the nature of the Outer Gates.

That's a really good point that goes against Justine summoning.  I mean what would stop Nemesis from just bringing them in by the truck load? 

Hmmmmmm  plot thickens!

[morriswalters]

If it wasn't Justine then why then and why there? The Former attack was meant to do what it did. There was no reason that I can think of that would have brought them. Early.

[Second Aristh]

Maeve and Lord Raith are examples of those who could manipulate a vanilla mortal to call up an Outsider.  Justine was infected/possessed, but she still is a mortal, so she could be manipulated to do it by HWWB.  Or heck I guess she may have even been able to manipulate the doorman if he had any talent at all to call the Cornerhounds up/

But not by Nemesis, otherwise that would be the go-to strategy instead of the current one. 

The doorman doesn't even get a name in the text.  I don't think he's an important character.

If it wasn't Justine then why then and why there? The Former attack was meant to do what it did. There was no reason that I can think of that would have brought them. Early.

Butters is the one that gives us the clue to what's going on with the cornerhounds.  He calls them the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hounds_of_Tindalos.  The important line of the wiki page:  "A person risks attracting their attention by traveling through time."  It's the time travel book intersecting with PT in the background.  Whoever summoned them or whatever attracted their attention is in that book, not PT.

[Mira]

But not by Nemesis, otherwise that would be the go-to strategy instead of the current one. 

The doorman doesn't even get a name in the text.  I don't think he's an important character.



Butters is the one that gives us the clue to what's going on with the cornerhounds.  He calls them the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hounds_of_Tindalos.  The important line of the wiki page:  "A person risks attracting their attention by traveling through time."  It's the time travel book intersecting with PT in the background.  Whoever summoned them or whatever attracted their attention is in that book, not PT.

But the doorman is mentioned, he doesn't have to be an important character or even named, if he was the one that called up the Cornerhounds.  He played his role end of story. 

I guess I am not making myself clear when I mention Lord Raith and Maeve, the point is, they were corrupted by Nemesis, and in turn they corrupted a mortal or mortals to call up Outsiders as needed.  It could be if she couldn't herself, Justine corrupted the doorman to calling them up.

That's a really good point that goes against Justine summoning.  I mean what would stop Nemesis from just bringing them in by the truck load? 

One factor is they don't have all their ducks in a row yet..  They tried a frontal assault on  Demonreach at the end of Cold Days and they failed.  So now the aim is by stealth and blackmail, that is done on the Q.T.   As in get Justine pregnant so she can assert pressure on Thomas to attempt to blow up the Accords by assassination, leading to hopefully discrediting their main future enemy, the star born Harry.  Also the hope might have been that Thomas would have been killed in the attempt.  Not sure how it worked, but Lord Raith was hoping for the death of Thomas because it would somehow lift Margaret's curse.   So he might have been hoping for a two-for, Thomas killed, curse lifted, Lara discredited, he is in power again...

[morriswalters]

Butters is the one that gives us the clue to what's going on with the cornerhounds.  He calls them the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hounds_of_Tindalos.  The important line of the wiki page:  "A person risks attracting their attention by traveling through time."  It's the time travel book intersecting with PT in the background.  Whoever summoned them or whatever attracted their attention is in that book, not PT.

I understand the significance of the Hounds.  The point is who is traveling and why. You suggested Eb.  But it's the same as Nemfections.  If everybody is nemfected then sooner or later the story falls apart in contradictions. My thinking is if time travel is involved then the traveler will always be Harry in some form or the other. But which form?

In this case having Justine summoning or causing to be summoned, the Hounds, then why?  Jim has had multiple Outsiders on the page at least once in Cold Days, right? But why the Hounds specifically? The same for Eb.

[Mira]

I understand the significance of the Hounds.  The point is who is traveling and why. You suggested Eb.  But it's the same as Nemfections.  If everybody is nemfected then sooner or later the story falls apart in contradictions. My thinking is if time travel is involved then the traveler will always be Harry in some form or the other. But which form?

In this case having Justine summoning or causing to be summoned, the Hounds, then why?  Jim has had multiple Outsiders on the page at least once in Cold Days, right? But why the Hounds specifically? The same for Eb.

Possible to throw Harry off the scent, if I remember correctly he didn't know much about them.  He might have been in trouble had Eb not been there with information as well as raw power.  So Justine/Nemesis may have just wanted to get rid of Harry.

Time travel I think is a stretch, the Cornerhounds come from another dimension but that doesn't make it time travel.  Now in the short story about Molly and Kringle, bending time is mentioned, enables Kringle and maybe Molly as well to deliver all that good stuff around the world in a short time period.

[Second Aristh]

I understand the significance of the Hounds.  The point is who is traveling and why. You suggested Eb.  But it's the same as Nemfections.  If everybody is nemfected then sooner or later the story falls apart in contradictions. My thinking is if time travel is involved then the traveler will always be Harry in some form or the other. But which form?

In this case having Justine summoning or causing to be summoned, the Hounds, then why?  Jim has had multiple Outsiders on the page at least once in Cold Days, right? But why the Hounds specifically? The same for Eb.

I suggested future!Harry was being chased in the time travel book, not Eb.  He used his past self to give himself breathing room in that book.  We just won't find out about the details for a few books. 

In PT the cornerhounds served as a way to delay Eb and Harry having their final confrontation, as a way to tease out starborn information, and as a mid-book action scene to ramp up tension.  For the plot though, the cornerhound attack doesn't really fit any character's motivations well.

[Mira]

In PT the cornerhounds served as a way to delay Eb and Harry having their final confrontation, as a way to tease out starborn information, and as a mid-book action scene to ramp up tension.  For the plot though, the cornerhound attack doesn't really fit any character's motivations well.

But it does, Justine has every reason to either distract or be rid of Harry.  Actually it is the reader who is distracted because of the peace talks and the Battle of Chicago, both are the real distractions, while Nemesis makes it's moves.  You said there must be limits to what a mortal can call up at any time otherwise it makes no sense or it is bad story telling.  However I think you are mistaken, if the Enemy is smart, it isn't going to reveal itself willy nilly..

[vincentric]

But it does, Justine has every reason to either distract or be rid of Harry.  Actually it is the reader who is distracted because of the peace talks and the Battle of Chicago, both are the real distractions, while Nemesis makes it's moves.  You said there must be limits to what a mortal can call up at any time otherwise it makes no sense or it is bad story telling.  However I think you are mistaken, if the Enemy is smart, it isn't going to reveal itself willy nilly..

Doesn't have to be willy nilly if they are smart. Take over some island that is semi-isolated and just summon them in until you have large force. Then just do what Ethniu should have done. Attack a large coastal city with no warning, massacre a 100k+ people and retreat before the cavalry arrives. Do it several times until the Supernatural/Mundane war gets going. It won't be a big blow to the Accorded Nations in one fell swoop, but supposedly the Outsiders are playing the long game.

[Second Aristh]

But it does, Justine has every reason to either distract or be rid of Harry.  Actually it is the reader who is distracted because of the peace talks and the Battle of Chicago, both are the real distractions, while Nemesis makes it's moves.  You said there must be limits to what a mortal can call up at any time otherwise it makes no sense or it is bad story telling.  However I think you are mistaken, if the Enemy is smart, it isn't going to reveal itself willy nilly..

Justine was already rid of Harry for a bit before the cornerhounds came.  My issue was with the idea that Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders.  If it could do that, then the Outer Gates are not really much of an obstacle.  In that case, Nemesis needs to grab a few wizards, find a deep hole, and start summoning outsiders by the thousands.  It doesn't need to pop open Demonreach or unbalance the faerie courts.

[Mira]

Justine was already rid of Harry for a bit before the cornerhounds came.  My issue was with the idea that Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders.  If it could do that, then the Outer Gates are not really much of an obstacle.  In that case, Nemesis needs to grab a few wizards, find a deep hole, and start summoning outsiders by the thousands.  It doesn't need to pop open Demonreach or unbalance the faerie courts.

It isn't random for starters.  I reread the whole section over again, to begin with Harry's "Spidy Star Born" sense perked up when Justine reacted "rationally" not "emotionally" to the news about Thomas.  "Does Lara know?" Not, "Oh my God is Thomas okay?"  Or anything like that.. At that point he had nothing to go on, just that her reaction seemed off.. Then in the next chapter when the Cornerhounds are actually called up, Harry states that only a mortal can call an Outsider up.  So guess who? Justine.  Justine wasn't rid of Harry, he had left her apartment, but she was still very much on his mind, if for no other reason than to protect her, that is why he hired Mr Grey.  Justine knew she'd remain on Harry's mind, no,no, she wasn't rid of him... But she did try to get rid of him via the Cornerhounds.

The answer to your second question is no, Nemesis can't just go around "forcing mortals" to call Outsiders up here, there, and everywhere.... It doesn't work that way, there has to be cooperation and a motive for a mortal to do it..  The mortal might be playing with the occult like Madge was, then Lord Raith tempted her further.  The one that doesn't fit is Maeve, since she wasn't a mortal, but I suppose Cowl and Kumori counts as mortal and presenting Lea with the infected Knife was as good as calling up an Outsider since it was a Nemesis delivery system.  Which should also answer your question about why there was no summons on mass, stealth was needed to pull it off.. Thus Maeve was too far gone before Mab found out and managed to gain the island before it's defenses were fully employed. 

[Second Aristh]

It isn't random for starters.  I reread the whole section over again, to begin with Harry's "Spidy Star Born" sense perked up when Justine reacted "rationally" not "emotionally" to the news about Thomas.  "Does Lara know?" Not, "Oh my God is Thomas okay?"  Or anything like that.. At that point he had nothing to go on, just that her reaction seemed off.. Then in the next chapter when the Cornerhounds are actually called up, Harry states that only a mortal can call an Outsider up.  So guess who? Justine.  Justine wasn't rid of Harry, he had left her apartment, but she was still very much on his mind, if for no other reason than to protect her, that is why he hired Mr Grey.  Justine knew she'd remain on Harry's mind, no,no, she wasn't rid of him... But she did try to get rid of him via the Cornerhounds.

What isn't random?  Who said random? 

Justine reacted rationally first, then broke down.  It's a little weird (but I don't think totally abnormal in reality), and it pings in Harry's mind as smart and that he had underestimated her.  Then he leaves to do his investigation around her building.  At that point, Justine has some breathing room; she's rid of Harry for a few hours.  If Justine does nothing (and Eb hadn't shown up), Harry doesn't find anything and goes to talk to Lara instead of getting patched up by Butters then talking to Lara.  Nothing significant changes in the plot if Nemesis doesn't make a move there compared to summoning cornerhounds.  That's my point in that it doesn't fit Nem!Justine's motivations well.

The answer to your second question is no, Nemesis can't just go around "forcing mortals" to call Outsiders up here, there, and everywhere.... It doesn't work that way, there has to be cooperation and a motive for a mortal to do it..  The mortal might be playing with the occult like Madge was, then Lord Raith tempted her further.  The one that doesn't fit is Maeve, since she wasn't a mortal, but I suppose Cowl and Kumori counts as mortal and presenting Lea with the infected Knife was as good as calling up an Outsider since it was a Nemesis delivery system.  Which should also answer your question about why there was no summons on mass, stealth was needed to pull it off.. Thus Maeve was too far gone before Mab found out and managed to gain the island before it's defenses were fully employed.

So if you think Nemesis needs cooperation and motive for a mortal to summon outsiders, and you think Justine summoned the cornerhounds, you're saying that Justine is willingly cooperating with Nemesis against Harry?  I don't buy that at all.

I don't think Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders either, including Justine.  If it could, the cloak and dagger strategy of getting hooks into the various supernatural nations it uses is needlessly complicated.  It could just use mortals to quietly summon an army of outsiders through the Outer Gates then take over directly.

[Mira]

Justine reacted rationally first, then broke down.  It's a little weird (but I don't think totally abnormal in reality), and it pings in Harry's mind as smart and that he had underestimated her.  Then he leaves to do his investigation around her building.  At that point, Justine has some breathing room; she's rid of Harry for a few hours.  If Justine does nothing (and Eb hadn't shown up), Harry doesn't find anything and goes to talk to Lara instead of getting patched up by Butters then talking to Lara.  Nothing significant changes in the plot if Nemesis doesn't make a move there compared to summoning cornerhounds.  That's my point in that it doesn't fit Nem!Justine's motivations well.

What are the motivations of Nemesis then in your estimation?  Back to your point of Justine being rid of Harry, physically maybe, but that in no way makes her rid of him.  No, I think Harry's gut reaction is dead on to Justine's reaction, "does Lara know?"  Sorry that isn't normal, especially when you add what Eb says about a star born like Harry and why he poses a danger to Outsiders, he can see through their crap!  That is why the boat trip ultimately fails for Nemesis, when it is calm, even though exhausted, Harry finally puts it together, he had seen though her in the apartment.  Justine asks if Lara knows, not because she will help Thomas, but because she will be sympathetic to her!  Lara won't be able to see through Justine, but Harry has that ability, she needs Lara to take her side. Which she does and insists that Harry take her to Thomas on the island, on the boat.

So if you think Nemesis needs cooperation and motive for a mortal to summon outsiders, and you think Justine summoned the cornerhounds, you're saying that Justine is willingly cooperating with Nemesis against Harry?  I don't buy that at all.

You are totally ignoring the fact that we are now talking about infected Justine... Infected Justine who admits on the boat that she worked to get pregnant to set Thomas up.  In short, she is no longer playing with a full deck, an insane person still has free will, it might not be rational, but as a mortal she is free to call up the Cornerhounds.  Think Justine of the boat trip at the end of Battle Ground, not sweet Justine of the earlier books.  At the beginning of the trip she was so sweet so concerned about Thomas, she hugs Harry.. Then she asks why Thomas did what he did?  Then she questions Harry and sort of confesses "Were they trying to use us,against him?" Us? As in her and the baby? Who was?  Then Harry goes to rest because he is exhausted. He starts to replay all of what had happened in his mind.  1] That Thomas had been trying to say Justine.  Not calling out the name of his love, but that she made him do it. 2] Then he returns to the scene in the apartment,

"Something about Justine wasn't. . .quite right, earlier, in the apartment," And I let my voice harden.  "How long ago did you possess the girl?"

The sweet Justine kind of melts away, just that quick.. Oh the body is there and the beautiful face, but it isn't her at all.  Then He Who Walks Beside, explains who he is and his mission, which should answer all your questions as to why Outsiders aren't summoned up as armies to get it over with it just isn't their style... They'd rather go about it this way;

The she exhaled in a slow, utterly sensual voice, "I am the doubt that wards away sleep.  I am the flaw that corrupts, the infected wound, the false fork in the trail.  I am the gnawer, the worm in the book, the maggot that burrows in the mind's eye."

Justine exploited all of Thomas's weaknesses, his love for her that was Justine.  Corrupted him so he'd be driven to murder and hopefully shatter the Accords.  Sent the Cornerhounds to throw Harry off the scent and blinds Lara to what she really is.

One more answer to your question, Harry asks her, "why? to shatter the Accords?"

Nemesis answers;

"Apocalypse isn't an event," Nemesis murmured.  "It is a frame of mind."

Then it goes on to speak of an unraveling of all things ending in Empty Night..  Interesting
it happens slowly and is done before anyone notices..  Madeline Albright in her book about
how democracies die describes it this way, paraphrasing, " the forces against democracy pluck away
at democracy feather by feather, like one would pluck a chicken, no one notices it or feels it until suddenly all the feathers are gone.." And people find they are living under a totalitarian state.

Nemesis basically tells Harry the same thing, how they will undermine everything, Mab, the Accords, upset the order of the universe, then all they "need is a single opening."