So are the Svartalves going to be at war with the White Court?

[Ed0517]

I mean yeah tbf being locked u in Demonreach might be considered a more just punishment and compromise from the Svartalves White Court relations perspective.

Like being sent to the Night's Watch.

Also a jailed Thomas may eventually talk, a dead one won't. They need the why ... especially after the Titan invasion. It happened way too soon after this to be dismissed as coincidence. And the svartalf spies in the White Court have probably told them that after Harry threw Thomas in jail Lara was very pissed at him.  And if they could get an account, possibly by Freydis, from Vadderung's organization, Lara, with her Valkyrie bodyguard, attacked Dresden for this - and were swatted down like flies.

[Second Aristh]

Also a jailed Thomas may eventually talk, a dead one won't. They need the why ... especially after the Titan invasion. It happened way too soon after this to be dismissed as coincidence. And the svartalf spies in the White Court have probably told them that after Harry threw Thomas in jail Lara was very pissed at him.  And if they could get an account, possibly by Freydis, from Vadderung's organization, Lara, with her Valkyrie bodyguard, attacked Dresden for this - and were swatted down like flies.

Are there svartalf spies in the White Court?  They don't exactly blend in.  Even if there are, they're not eavesdropping on what happened at Demonreach.  The island's intellectus would have alerted him to other people on the island.

[Mira]

Are there svartalf spies in the White Court?  They don't exactly blend in.  Even if there are, they're not eavesdropping on what happened at Demonreach.  The island's intellectus would have alerted him to other people on the island.

No, but I can see Molly filling them in on all of that.  Not sure how much Harry may have told her
but her assurance that Thomas wasn't escaping "justice" on the island would have gone a long way I think.

[morriswalters]

Molly is no longer Molly.

[Mira]

Molly is no longer Molly.

Yes, she is the Winter Lady, but lots of Molly remains..  Suggest you reread the short story, "Good People."  Even if she was basically all Winter Lady, it isn't in the interest of the Winter Court or any other member of the Accords for one faction to be at war with another no matter how big the provocation was. 

[Second Aristh]

Yes, she is the Winter Lady, but lots of Molly remains..  Suggest you reread the short story, "Good People."  Even if she was basically all Winter Lady, it isn't in the interest of the Winter Court or any other member of the Accords for one faction to be at war with another no matter how big the provocation was.

Molly is Winter Lady enough that she can't give something away for nothing.  The location of an enemy is valuable.  All this is assuming that Molly knows, of course.  She'd probably put together why Harry needed the illusion ring, but it isn't a given.

[Ed0517]

Are there svartalf spies in the White Court?  They don't exactly blend in.  Even if there are, they're not eavesdropping on what happened at Demonreach.  The island's intellectus would have alerted him to other people on the island.

the spies do not have to be Svaltalves. Did Harry have a spy in the White Court? Sure he did - Justine. The White Court didn't find her. She left when it was clear she was Nemfected.  The Black Council had their agent in the White Council - LaFortier (plus others).  Cowl had his agent in the White Court - Vitto Malvora. As for what happened on Demonreach - doesn't Lara have an organization? Vadderrung does - Monoc Securities. We know Lara employs humans - security, medical, Justine... Vadderung may as well. Reports get filed, and files get leaked. People who get secrets sell secrets. Money is power, and power corrupts.

Look at real life - Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were not Russians, were not present at atomic tests, and were Russian spies passing atomic secrets.

[Ed0517]

No, but I can see Molly filling them in on all of that.  Not sure how much Harry may have told her
but her assurance that Thomas wasn't escaping "justice" on the island would have gone a long way I think.

I can't see Molly filling them in FOR FREE. Can favors be exchanged? My info for....

[Second Aristh]

the spies do not have to be Svaltalves. Did Harry have a spy in the White Court? Sure he did - Justine. The White Court didn't find her. She left when it was clear she was Nemfected.  The Black Council had their agent in the White Council - LaFortier (plus others).  Cowl had his agent in the White Court - Vitto Malvora. As for what happened on Demonreach - doesn't Lara have an organization? Vadderrung does - Monoc Securities. We know Lara employs humans - security, medical, Justine... Vadderung may as well. Reports get filed, and files get leaked. People who get secrets sell secrets. Money is power, and power corrupts.

Look at real life - Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were not Russians, were not present at atomic tests, and were Russian spies passing atomic secrets.

Idk, the svartalves don't seem the type to place spies.  They're very by-the-book.

Regardless, there were 4.5 people present near Demonreach at the end of PT.  Harry, Lara, Justine, Murphy, and technically Thomas.  Which one of them is gonna talk about what happened there?  Not Harry, not Lara, and definitely not Murphy.  It would all depend on Freydis, and if anyone she'd tell Vadderung.  I don't think he'd tell either.  The events on the island will stay secret.

[Ed0517]

Yes, she is the Winter Lady, but lots of Molly remains..  Suggest you reread the short story, "Good People."  Even if she was basically all Winter Lady, it isn't in the interest of the Winter Court or any other member of the Accords for one faction to be at war with another no matter how big the provocation was.

I don't SEE a reason Winter, which is relatively unconcerned with this plane, would care so much... but I could see PLENTY of reasons other factions might like to see factions at war. The likes of the Swartalves could be weapons merchants. Sell to both sides. Other factions might benefit from another's demise - fill in the gap left when the Red court was obliterated. The Fomor got in good.  A real life hypothetical - the US collapses. States war on states. Wisconsin gives Ohio, currently at war with Michigan, great information and weapons.  Ohio wins, takes three quarters of Michigan, but lets WI take the UP in return for aid received.

[Ed0517]

Idk, the svartalves don't seem the type to place spies.  They're very by-the-book.

Regardless, there were 4.5 people present near Demonreach at the end of PT.  Harry, Lara, Justine, Murphy, and technically Thomas.  Which one of them is gonna talk about what happened there?  Not Harry, not Lara, and definitely not Murphy.  It would all depend on Freydis, and if anyone she'd tell Vadderung.  I don't think he'd tell either.  The events on the island will stay secret.

Justine is Nemfected. Whoever is behind that may leak stuff if they want. And Lara and Vadderung have organizations. Heck, Madeline was family and gave Lara up. That was a hole. I'll trust Harry and Murphy. Harry doesn't have much of an organization (one of the reasons he's on the outs with Carlos) and Murphy's wanted to pretend such things did not happen. Lara directly is likely safe.

As far as the svaltalves spying? because they are more good guys? Old Russian saying - trust, but verify. Heck, don't you think MAC is a spy/observer? For all we know, Uriel could be running him. Uriel is a good guy. The good guys too run spies, if only to try to find out where the OTHER side's spies and moles are.

[Mira]

I don't SEE a reason Winter, which is relatively unconcerned with this plane, would care so much... but I could see PLENTY of reasons other factions might like to see factions at war. The likes of the Swartalves could be weapons merchants. Sell to both sides. Other factions might benefit from another's demise - fill in the gap left when the Red court was obliterated. The Fomor got in good.  A real life hypothetical - the US collapses. States war on states. Wisconsin gives Ohio, currently at war with Michigan, great information and weapons.  Ohio wins, takes three quarters of Michigan, but lets WI take the UP in return for aid received.

Mab cares, Mab is Winter, as Lady, Molly cares... Winter is part of the Accords, it is Mab's big thing, the Accords are at war with the Fomor..   The better analogy is like during WWII the U.S. decided to fight a little war on the side with it's ally Canada while trying to fight Nazi Germany..  If the U.S. did that the Allies would have had a much less of a chance to defeat Nazi Germany and the rest of the Axis Powers.  The members of the Accords have to remain united if they are to defeat the Fomor.

[morriswalters]

As a general premise, there are no true secrets. So if the Svaltalves need to know they would have assets of the kind that would let them find out eventually.

[Snark Knight]

the spies do not have to be Svaltalves. Did Harry have a spy in the White Court? Sure he did - Justine. The White Court didn't find her.

I find it really difficult to believe Lara wouldn't have predicted Thomas' lover would share information with him, and given that Thomas was closer to Harry than to the Raiths for a good part of the time since BR, anything that concerned him would probably have reached him. Lara isn't dumb, and that wasn't anywhere near as subtle a spy placement as Harry seemed to think.

Lara saw Justine as useful because she couldn't be whammied by anyone else in the court and would generally support Lara because Lara was looking out for her beloved Thomas, but I really doubt she was ignorant of Justine's allegiances. I think anything Justine saw was filtered through 1) does Lara mind if Harry sees it? 2) can Lara benefit from Justine unwittingly passing misinformation to Harry on this topic?

The latter may have been an unintended blessing, because while Harry actually didn't ask Justine for much out of concern for her safety, Lara was probably showing her enough disinformation as a precaution that Nemesis would have got a fair bit of fake mixed in with the real material.

[Ed0517]

Mab cares, Mab is Winter, as Lady, Molly cares... Winter is part of the Accords, it is Mab's big thing, the Accords are at war with the Fomor..   The better analogy is like during WWII the U.S. decided to fight a little war on the side with it's ally Canada while trying to fight Nazi Germany..  If the U.S. did that the Allies would have had a much less of a chance to defeat Nazi Germany and the rest of the Axis Powers.  The members of the Accords have to remain united if they are to defeat the Fomor.

Molly cares but she is subservient to Mab. Mab doesn't care so much about the world but she cares if someone else may take it and can use it to upset the balance of power. If you want a WWII analogy, Britain probably didn't care so much about Indonesia for Indonesia, but when the Japanese secured their OIL FIELDS.... NOW it is a concern. The Fomor seize the surface, they have more leverage. They get human weapons? Even Ethneiu at times seemed to not want to be there when the Army arrived.