Notes on Contagion

[The_Sibelis]

I don't know about some of that, but Beside identified as male in BG as "He Who Walks Beside". We've heard him talk through three hosts, and two were female, but that seems to be more due to the power structure we've seen in the Dresden Files.

eh, that's splitting hairs already split elsewhere. The most primal, well known base name is he who walks beside. But that doesn't mean Nemesis, when so named is male. Same
Creature, but ones a lesser aspect.(thinking of female Loki, or perhaps all three are aspects of Nemesis instead..?) but who is this male we've seen him in? Cat Sith? He doesn't count to me
1 he's a fairy cat, no mortal inside his mantle.(is he male?)
2 that might explain why he was harder to control, like an Ill fitting glove. Nemesis forced it's way in but wasn't a true mirror
3 I figured it was behind? The message, the playful attitude reminding me so much of GS.
If they line up aspects then, without any horsemen connection, then Hwwbh and his loathing is the opposite of love, which makes Nemesis despair I'd think. (Though I'm still partial to the idea nemesis uses all three) *forgot exactly where I was going here..

We've seen Behind briefly occupy a woman (Madge), and what was likely Before occupy a man (Vitto), and then Before later in what may have been a male body (Sharkface). So it just seemed to be that they use what they have to work with.

Madge wasn't a possession really was it? Just sock puppeted the corpse iirc. They do use who is they can get when they can't get who they want. But I think those actions are still ruled by very basic principles of mirroring and contagion. The contagion might be as simple as any sort of rub off of 'outside' energy. Something that can be facilitated by mentally connecting to outsiders, rubbing on the aura of something that has outside energy(thinking this was Elaine with Aurora.. maybe even Harry with Lea) or using dark magic, which is outside energy. They may be a le to mirror as little as 'violated free will with fear' for a vector. But the goal isn't a vector to control, it's a perfect mirror. A true manifestation of full potential.
I'd compare it favorably with Thomas and his mirror, which was probably an intentional clue bat along with a few other Thomas things.( Please note, I had something intelligible thought out, but to my supreme frustration I've been interrupted so many times I can't string it back together, so this is what you get 🤦‍♂️😤🤷‍♂️ )Along these lines, if Thomas is half born into an entity not of himself, and Blamps are replaced by a being not themselves. So, they are looking not for someone they can leech on, but someone who can birth them fully into the world. Chewing on the idea angels and outsiders are similar in nature and starborn are the link to creating, if not a new one per say, then a new identity for one.(like lash's"true form" being a Greek woman..) I got more, gonna try to organize my mind on it.

**Would point out GP has kravos, who feeds on fear and has no free will. Always thought this was an early attempt at birthing fear bringer

[Griffyn612]

eh, that's splitting hairs already split elsewhere. The most primal, well known base name is he who walks beside. But that doesn't mean Nemesis, when so named is male. Same
Creature, but ones a lesser aspect.(thinking of female Loki, or perhaps all three are aspects of Nemesis instead..?) but who is this male we've seen him in? Cat Sith? He doesn't count to me
1 he's a fairy cat, no mortal inside his mantle.(is he male?)
2 that might explain why he was harder to control, like an Ill fitting glove. Nemesis forced it's way in but wasn't a true mirror
3 I figured it was behind? The message, the playful attitude reminding me so much of GS.
If they line up aspects then, without any horsemen connection, then Hwwbh and his loathing is the opposite of love, which makes Nemesis despair I'd think. (Though I'm still partial to the idea nemesis uses all three) *forgot exactly where I was going here..
Madge wasn't a possession really was it? Just sock puppeted the corpse iirc. They do use who is they can get when they can't get who they want. But I think those actions are still ruled by very basic principles of mirroring and contagion. The contagion might be as simple as any sort of rub off of 'outside' energy. Something that can be facilitated by mentally connecting to outsiders, rubbing on the aura of something that has outside energy(thinking this was Elaine with Aurora.. maybe even Harry with Lea) or using dark magic, which is outside energy. They may be a le to mirror as little as 'violated free will with fear' for a vector. But the goal isn't a vector to control, it's a perfect mirror. A true manifestation of full potential.
I'd compare it favorably with Thomas and his mirror, which was probably an intentional clue bat along with a few other Thomas things.( Please note, I had something intelligible thought out, but to my supreme frustration I've been interrupted so many times I can't string it back together, so this is what you get 🤦‍♂️😤🤷‍♂️ )Along these lines, if Thomas is half born into an entity not of himself, and Blamps are replaced by a being not themselves. So, they are looking not for someone they can leech on, but someone who can birth them fully into the world. Chewing on the idea angels and outsiders are similar in nature and starborn are the link to creating, if not a new one per say, then a new identity for one.(like lash's"true form" being a Greek woman..) I got more, gonna try to organize my mind on it.

**Would point out GP has kravos, who feeds on fear and has no free will. Always thought this was an early attempt at birthing fear bringer

All I'm suggesting is that the Walkers have each identified themselves as male, and in BR, their master is referred to as Lord.

I honestly don't think gender plays any role for them at all. Maybe if the series were being narrated by Harriet Dresden, they would have identified themselves as She. Maybe they've translated something complex to Harry in the same way Bob had to boil down quantum theory to throwing a rock. He just hears "He" because he is used to gender identity.

I think Titania calls nemesis "it". So I'd go gender neutral or male, based on the language of the books.

But trying to make a case for female identity due to a theoretical association to Rhamnousia (Greek goddess Nemesis' other name, to avoid confusion) doesn't seem like a sound basis for theory crafting.

After all, if Beside/Nemesis had ever been Greek Rhamnousia/Nemesis, using that name to refer to her/it/him would be pointless.

[The_Sibelis]

How would that name be pointless?
The sound basis is easily in the naming. Nemesis draws it's attention because it's a proper name, the Adversary is a role and does not draw it's attention. Given the option between thinking Jim made a one off mistake that makes no metaphysical sense on a character of paramount importance OR the idea it follows given mechanics and we just need to look at why. I'll take the later. That's not theory, that's a... Point of contention that needs addressed before we can so easily dismiss Nemesis as Nemesis the Goddess.

[Griffyn612]

How would that name be pointless?
The sound basis is easily in the naming. Nemesis draws it's attention because it's a proper name, the Adversary is a role and does not draw it's attention. Given the option between thinking Jim made a one off mistake that makes no metaphysical sense on a character of paramount importance OR the idea it follows given mechanics and we just need to look at why. I'll take the later. That's not theory, that's a... Point of contention that needs addressed before we can so easily dismiss Nemesis as Nemesis the Goddess.

If it were Nemesis the Greek goddess, then Titania could have said "she" rather than "it".

Instead, she refers to it as a power rather than an individual, and an "it". Nemesis sounds more like a spell or computer program than an avatar for righteous retribution.

[The_Sibelis]

If it were Nemesis the Greek goddess, then Titania could have said "she" rather than "it".

Instead, she refers to it as a power rather than an individual, and an "it". Nemesis sounds more like a spell or computer program than an avatar for righteous retribution.

the Sidhe tend to be more correct in their grammer of course, but that doesn't mean we don't have it wrong on our end, we just saw a 'she' or the vessel she used that let her manifest as Nemesis was itself female. If Beside comes into power through Justine I think what the general world will refer to 'it' as, would be vastly different than say if it's born into her male child. We already have an example of this, Drakul. He's clearly in a male body, but this in the know call him a creature and 'it'. 'It' all night be down to a certain prejudice of view. Despite becoming male, they still perceive him as the original unisex being. Mythology still perceives him as male though.
*Speculatively, perhaps Nemesis the Goddess is connected to one of the mantles still floating around and she's specifically trying to mirror it to become it's vessel?
** Old manifestations would still possess similar attributes of course. When Molly's use of fear was tempered to fall into grey areas of magic that didn't break free will, she suddenly resembled the winter lady enough to don the mantle. And the idea of such old manifestations being fed into the table of course, comes up with Mabs scales.

[Griffyn612]

the Sidhe tend to be more correct in their grammer of course, but that doesn't mean we don't have it wrong on our end, we just saw a 'she' or the vessel she used that let her manifest as Nemesis was itself female. If Beside comes into power through Justine I think what the general world will refer to 'it' as, would be vastly different than say if it's born into her male child. We already have an example of this, Drakul. He's clearly in a male body, but this in the know call him a creature and 'it'. 'It' all night be down to a certain prejudice of view. Despite becoming male, they still perceive him as the original unisex being. Mythology still perceives him as male though.
*Speculatively, perhaps Nemesis the Goddess is connected to one of the mantles still floating around and she's specifically trying to mirror it to become it's vessel?
** Old manifestations would still possess similar attributes of course. When Molly's use of fear was tempered to fall into grey areas of magic that didn't break free will, she suddenly resembled the winter lady enough to don the mantle. And the idea of such old manifestations being fed into the table of course, comes up with Mabs scales.

So tell me I'm understanding your current hypothesis:

• The Greek goddess Nemesis, daughter of Nyx and Erebus, was an Outsider all along. She got along well with native Insider gods and goddesses, had festivals and temples and a generally positive standing with the Greek populace.
• For some reason not said in mythology, Nemesis fell out of favor with humans and gods alike, and decided to become their enemy. She changed her nature from avatar of implacable justice to a shadowy spymaster that seeks to destroy all of reality and bring down everyone.

Is that what you're saying? Or am I misunderstanding?

EDIT: And to clarify, I'm just looking to confirm so I can approach theory crafting for it.

I.E. if you were saying Beside is Nemesis, then one might say Before is Oizys, and Behind is Moros.

Oizys, being one of Nemesis's sisters, who was the personification of misery/anxiety/depression, like we've seen Before's mental whammy cause. And Moros, being one of Nemesis's brothers, who was the personification of a mortal's impending doom, a hateful spirit that allowed mortals to foresee their death, much like how Behind taunted Harry.

All of which are children of Nyx (Night) and Erebus (Darkness), which, when combined, is basically Dark Night (presumably like a sky empty of stars).

There are other siblings, too, so there may be better fits, but those are the ones I found quickly.

EDIT 2:

Looking at the other siblings, I'd say Apate, the personification of deceit, would be a better fit for Beside than Nemesis.

Or Eris, goddess of stryfe and discord.

Or Dolos, Apate's male counterpart of deceit and treachery.

Or Hybris, goddess of insolence, violence, and outrageous behaviour.

The Moroi, the three weavers associated with the Mothers, were also siblings, being daughters of Nyx.

[Mira]

If it were Nemesis the Greek goddess, then Titania could have said "she" rather than "it".

Instead, she refers to it as a power rather than an individual, and an "it". Nemesis sounds more like a spell or computer program than an avatar for righteous retribution.

Yes, I think Nemesis more unisex than anything.. Not to be confused with Outsiders, but then again. . . He Who Walks Beside, is a "He," it isn't She Who Walks Beside or It Who Walks Beside, it is "He."  So Outsiders or Walkers definitely have a male gender I'd say...  However what is confusing and I just double checked in Battle Ground when Harry confronts Justine and company.. He demands a name,

page 359

"It will do you no good once I've caved in your skull. Nemesis am I called.

Okay, but on the very next page.. Harry still demands a name.. Justine shutters and says..

She shuddered in bizarre ecstasy and panted, in a frantic whisper,
"I am He Who Walks Beside."
Hell's bells.
A Walker.

More confusing a couple of lines down Harry shutters at how close it was, he had almost let this thing on Demonreach past it's defenses and says...

And an Outsider with the power of a Walker, turned loose inside the island's defenses.

But then on the very next page, the top of the very next page.. Harry accuses Justine et al of sending Thomas to assassinate Etri.  And....

"Apocalypse isn't an event," Nemesis murmured.  "It is a frame of mind.
I probably would have staggered anyway, but the phrase hit hard.
This was less of a plan than . . .an act of faith, I suppose you would say," the Outsider continued through Justine's lips..

Then another line or two and he is back to calling it a Walker.. Then back to Nemesis further down the page.. On the next page as he falls overboard and Alfred wisks him away he is back to just calling him/her/it an Outsider..

So, back in White Night, Lash tells Harry that Walkers are Outsider warriors, elite knights you might say..  Okay, I get that...

Titania back in Cold Days, tells Harry the Enemy's name finally, Nemesis.  The impression I got and I'm not alone from the posts here since Cold Days came out that Nemesis was apart from your average Outsider..  Now it isn't all that clear, it appears they are all one of the same, or maybe clearer to what you are thinking a spell, or computer program, or maybe closer to what Bob is, a spirit of some kind.  But classified how?  Genus; Nemesis, Class; Outsider, Family; Walker?   

But most significant I think, from this data we must conclude that at the tender age of 16, Harry kicked Nemesis's ass..

[Griffyn612]

Yes, I think Nemesis more unisex than anything.. Not to be confused with Outsiders, but then again. . . He Who Walks Beside, is a "He," it isn't She Who Walks Beside or It Who Walks Beside, it is "He."  So Outsiders or Walkers definitely have a male gender I'd say...  However what is confusing and I just double checked in Battle Ground when Harry confronts Justine and company.. He demands a name,

page 359
Okay, but on the very next page.. Harry still demands a name.. Justine shutters and says..
More confusing a couple of lines down Harry shutters at how close it was, he had almost let this thing on Demonreach past it's defenses and says...
But then on the very next page, the top of the very next page.. Harry accuses Justine et al of sending Thomas to assassinate Etri.  And....

Then another line or two and he is back to calling it a Walker.. Then back to Nemesis further down the page.. On the next page as he falls overboard and Alfred wisks him away he is back to just calling him/her/it an Outsider..

So, back in White Night, Lash tells Harry that Walkers are Outsider warriors, elite knights you might say..  Okay, I get that...

Titania back in Cold Days, tells Harry the Enemy's name finally, Nemesis.  The impression I got and I'm not alone from the posts here since Cold Days came out that Nemesis was apart from your average Outsider..  Now it isn't all that clear, it appears they are all one of the same, or maybe clearer to what you are thinking a spell, or computer program, or maybe closer to what Bob is, a spirit of some kind.  But classified how?  Genus; Nemesis, Class; Outsider, Family; Walker?   

But most significant I think, from this data we must conclude that at the tender age of 16, Harry kicked Nemesis's ass..

Harry is an Insider called Hoss who is the Winter Knight.
Lloyd Slate was an Insider not called Hoss who was the Winter Knight.
Tam Lin was an Insider not called Hoss who was the Winter Knight.

Beside is an Outsider called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Before is an Outsider not called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Behind is an Outsider not called Nemesis who is a Walker.

Simple at that for me.

[Yuillegan]

I would think most villains were combinations of either BC influence or Nemesis, but they're not the same thing.  It's two groups both thinking that they're using the other one for their own gains.  Sells/Kravos/Bianca are all the initial pawns set up by the BC, not really Nemesis hosts.  Why waste a limited slot on someone like Sells if you're Nemesis when the BC will control him for you?

SA?

Ariana doesn't make sense to me.  She'd be a nice candidate as far as her placement in the Red Court, but she doesn't undermine anything like normal Nemesis hosts.  Her moves in Changes were all pro-Red Court when the goal of the bad guys was to weaken both nations by screwing the one that was currently on top in the war.  The Red King and Peabody did that for them.

The best connection with Ariana and the BC would be the heart curse that Sells was studying for them.  Possibly the BC/Nemesis could have thought that killing starborn Harry and Eb was worth ending their war early.
Yeah, I'm getting the Agent Smith vibe from Nemesis too.  My current framework is that Nemesis has a limited list of candidates to jump into and partially to fully control, but it can only do that to a smaller number of beings at once, say 13ish since that number is cropping up a lot more lately.

SA (I'm abbreviating your handle), I believe Lily confirms Sells, Denton, Kravos and Aurora. Why waste Nemesis on Justine? She's just a low-level human. I suspect Justin was too for that matter. I think all these apparent nobody humans are not chosen randomly, but for their specific connection to Harry. Why pick on people just in Chicago? Why pick such weak hosts? I do believe Nemesis also is trying to create more chaos in the world, but the hosts are not totally at random. It could be as simple as the initial host was connected to Harry and Chicago, and so all the others are just the hosts that were available. It could also be much more specific and each host was chosen for how it would affect certain things. I believe that is more likely, considering how powerful Outsiders are and Walkers in particular.

I agree though there is a difference between Nemesis infected villains, Black Court agents and those manipulated by them, and other nasty monsters. I think Arianna WAS destabilising the Red Court, she just didn't realise it. Think back to Maeve. So sure she was winning her own game against Mab - neither knowing nor caring for the repercussions. Maeve was almost deluded into believing she would rule instead of Mab but really she would have perished along with the rest. I think Arianna was blinded to her ambitions of going to the Lords of the Outer Night...never realising that the end result of her manipulations was going to be either the destruction of the Red Court or the Wizards. Neither matters to Nemesis...it just wants Empty Night. Remember how the it says everything that happened in Battle Ground was just an act of faith in "Empty Night"?

Well, it's almost certain whoever gave the that curse to Sells (some really advanced dark magic, blood magic) also either taught it to the Red Court, or borrowed it from them to pass on. We've always assumed Black Court...but Nemesis could be the link as well. I don't know that Sells could have powered the curse past one individual.

You know, I first thought of Agent Smith but then the more I thought about it the less it works. Agent Smith wanted to "perfect" everything. He hated all the humans, and then all the programs as well. He almost grew too powerful for his masters to control (at least, that's one interpretation). But Smith ended up taking over every program in the Matrix. He couldn't stop, becoming a self-replicating virus. Smith wasn't just one thing, it was a legion by the end. Which I think was deliberate by the Wachowskis. Anyway, Nemesis doesn't seem to take everything over or be a legion, as such. It more seems like a being that just enjoys destroying things, and just take's over it's host when it feels the need to. That's why I thought of it more of the regular Agents than Smith. Still though, anything is possible.

I'm trying to figure out in my head using book evidence if the contagion *has* to be Beside. I'd prefer if it didn't.

I'd prefer if the contagion is a conduit that corrupts those it touches, changing them, but it doesn't have anything to do with Beside.

The question is, if the contagion in last call tied the beer drinkers to the essence of Dionysus, then could the nemesis contagion tie to the Lord of Slowest Terror, master of the Walkers?

It could be that the contagion is a psychic link, and the link causes behavior corruption without Beside being involved.

Beside could just be using the link to spy on some, and possess a select few that meet additional criteria.

That's an interesting question. I'm not sure it has to be Beside...but I'm not sure that it's anything else either. The Lord of Slowest Terror is an interesting connection. Although one could argue that just as Dionysus was connected to the drinkers of Mac's beer via the contagion, Nemesis is the contagion that connects those infected with the being that it serves (likely an Old One) - the Lord of Slowest Terror. Or Nemesis could be the being at the end of the electricity cable, so to speak, rather than being the cable itself. It's really hard to say.

I'd personally link this to the summoning and mirroring conversation in PG. Based on previous theory combined with BG Nemesis I'd place a large wager that those things connected to either side of the love, faith, and hope trio are primary vectors for contagion. Molly in particular is a candidate for being infected through the use of fear against free will, and in doing so opened herself up to whatever mouse caught a wiff of outside the station. I can also make the case for Nemesis intentionally targeting young, potentially magical women with a propensity to go insane for one reason or another. Molly, Archive, Maeve, Justine. Me thinks Nemesis takes after her namesake and is inherently female.
*And... Is not black magic/contagion simply the primary conduit?

So, what about the male victims? Cat Sith, Kravos, Denton, Sells, likely Cowl, likely Justin, possibly Peabody etc. Lea also isn't young nor is Maeve. Has the Archive been infected? Hard to see Nemesis being gender focused. Can an extradimensional entity from beyond reality have a gender? That's like trying to gender gravity I would have thought.

I don't believe black magic could be the primary conduit though, even if it's part of the process. Justine doesn't practice magic for a start, and beings like Lord Raith etc have inhuman magic. Their dark magic is different from human black magic. The difference between what Cowl uses versus what Mavra uses is distinct. The Faeries use Faerie magic, which doesn't seem to have a black-white magic dichotomy. So how would they be tainted from black magic use?

Eh ... I wouldn't take Lily's list as authoritative. She was extensively misled.

There was a WOJ that the first nemfected character appeared 'on stage' in Grave Peril, so I think Sells is in the influenced but not infected category. I'm still uncertain whether he was talking about on the literal stage with Bianca at the party scene, or just on page in a general sense.

That's fair, Lily didn't know a lot of things. I do remember though back before Justine was revealed as a host for Beside, that people used to claim Lily being misled as a reason for mortals to not be able to be nemfected/possessed...which clearly turned out to not be the case. So I am not so sure we should be so quick to write off what she said. Not to mention, the Doylist reason for listing those characters is to inform the reader. It's not particularly smooth, but unless Jim is deliberately trying to mislead readers about those mentioned in Lily's list it doesn't actually make sense to list them in the first place. I get he was trying to mislead the readers at that moment about Maeve and Lily (Maeve in particular) but in a broader sense what does misleading readers about whether Denton or Sells were infected/possessed achieve?

Also, side note that just occurred to me - Titania would have known Maeve was infected but deliberately chose to let the events of Cold Days play out. Mab has the right to be fairly angry at her not to mention her inaction led to Lily's death. Either Titania is really mad at Mab (seems likely) or she was immensely short-sighted (also possible).

To play devil's advocate as well - Jim has said many things in interviews that aren't true because he sometimes misremembers his own work (particularly the older stuff). Sometimes the questioners even have to remind him. I admit I am unfamiliar with the WOJ in question, but it's possible (depending on when the WOJ was made) that Jim hadn't yet written Cold Days or could well have forgotten what he wrote in Cold Days.

See, this is where the terminology is limiting.

If there's a contagion that corrupts, and there's Beside possession, then what he said and what Lily said can both be accurate.

Sells end Denton are infected with the corrupting contagion. Someone in GP is possessed/hosting Beside/Nemesis.

That's a very good point. We certainly, at least for theory crafting, need better rules around terminology. It would be helpful if Jim did it himself because then the fandom would shift. But I doubt he will because it keeps us guessing more.

Next AMA, someone should really try and clarify this stuff.

[Mira]

Harry is an Insider called Hoss who is the Winter Knight.
Lloyd Slate was an Insider not called Hoss who was the Winter Knight.
Tam Lin was an Insider not called Hoss who was the Winter Knight.

Beside is an Outsider called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Before is an Outsider not called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Behind is an Outsider not called Nemesis who is a Walker.

Simple at that for me.

   All I know is Harry still kicked Nemesis Ass..

[morriswalters]

Has Nemesis been on the page?  How many names does it have? Titania says

“Nemesis,” she breathed. “Speak it carefully—or it may hear you.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 315). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

She doesn't say Before or Beside. I haven't gone back to check but in two cases Jim has forced the Walkers to say their names and what they do.

Then she exhaled in a slow, utterly sensual voice, “I am the doubt that wards away sleep. I am the flaw that corrupts, the infected wound, the false fork in the trail. I am the gnawer, the worm in the book, the maggot that burrows in the mind’s eye.” She shuddered in bizarre ecstasy and panted, in a frantic whisper, “I am He Who Walks Beside.”

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 360). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Lightning burned far back in its eyes, and it spoke in the voice of gale winds. I AM GATEBREAKER, HARBINGER! I AM FEARGIVER, HOPESLAYER! I AM HE-WHO-WALKS-BEFORE! For a second, I just stood there, staring up at the sky, shocked. Hell’s bells. It worked. The thing spoke, and as it did, I knew, I knew what it was, as if I’d been given a snapshot of its core identity, its quintessential self.

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (pp. 428-429). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

This the only point where Harry specifically calls out the possessed as the Adversary/

Then it lifted its head and the motion was subtly wrong, something that simply didn’t have the grace I’d seen in the elder malk before. It faced me for a moment and then it spoke, its voice absent of anything like personality. “A pity. I would have been more useful to them as an active, covert asset.” I shuddered at the utter absence in that voice. I wasn’t talking to Sith anymore. I was speaking with the adversary.

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 439). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

And that phrasing is...odd.

[Mira]

Has Nemesis been on the page?  How many names does it have? Titania says She doesn't say Before or Beside. I haven't gone back to check but in two cases Jim has forced the Walkers to say their names and what they do.This the only point where Harry specifically calls out the possessed as the Adversary/And that phrasing is...odd.

Yes, and didn't Mab say not to even say the name "Nemesis" that often it give it power.  Yes, Listens to Wind also said that about the Skin Walker, but I believe Mab said it as well.  So are they all Nemesis?  If so Harry has known it by at least one of it's names most of his life.

[The_Sibelis]

So tell me I'm understanding your current hypothesis:

• The Greek goddess Nemesis, daughter of Nyx and Erebus, was an Outsider all along. She got along well with native Insider gods and goddesses, had festivals and temples and a generally positive standing with the Greek populace.
• For some reason not said in mythology, Nemesis fell out of favor with humans and gods alike, and decided to become their enemy. She changed her nature from avatar of implacable justice to a shadowy spymaster that seeks to destroy all of reality and bring down everyone.

ok let's see if I can organize this right...
1The Greek Goddess Nemesis was either thrown out because she was always Beside and her nature inside reality didn't fit the new order after TWC.
2 OR the Greek goddess Nemesis existed and at some point was directly corrupted by Beside so much so that the mask of Nemesis is now just an aspect of Beside through which she can act.

3 tangential idea, They subsequently destroyed/changed the nature of 'Nemesis' into something else, i.e. into the stone table. BUT, if Nemesis was an original being like say, Ethniu. Something that exists in an of itself or at a higher level form, something with Soul, the take the idea according to recent Woj on wamp feeding (always have the wamps have clues) talking about consuming souls and how all soul seeks it's original state making the small bits they actually take meaningless and mash that fact together with the idea Nemesis used to have a soul, and it's very much targeting the courts because they have pieces that match, things in it she can mirror because they were made from her aspects.

Is that what you're saying? Or am I misunderstanding?

EDIT: And to clarify, I'm just looking to confirm so I can approach theory crafting for it.

I.E. if you were saying Beside is Nemesis, then one might say Before is Oizys, and Behind is Moros.

Oizys, being one of Nemesis's sisters, who was the personification of misery/anxiety/depression, like we've seen Before's mental whammy cause. And Moros, being one of Nemesis's brothers, who was the personification of a mortal's impending doom, a hateful spirit that allowed mortals to foresee their death, much like how Behind taunted Harry.

All of which are children of Nyx (Night) and Erebus (Darkness), which, when combined, is basically Dark Night (presumably like a sky empty of stars).

There are other siblings, too, so there may be better fits, but those are the ones I found quickly.

EDIT 2:

Looking at the other siblings, I'd say Apate, the personification of deceit, would be a better fit for Beside than Nemesis.

Or Eris, goddess of stryfe and discord.

Or Dolos, Apate's male counterpart of deceit and treachery.

Or Hybris, goddess of insolence, violence, and outrageous behaviour.

The Moroi, the three weavers associated with the Mothers, were also siblings, being daughters of Nyx.

that.. that could be quite accurate. Even if it's not one for one, the general idea seems present in the DF. Though Jim mashes mythos together sometimes so it's hard to pinpoint one being when that person in the DF might literally be multiple beings of similar nature in multiple mythos.

[Second Aristh]

SA (I'm abbreviating your handle), I believe Lily confirms Sells, Denton, Kravos and Aurora. Why waste Nemesis on Justine? She's just a low-level human. I suspect Justin was too for that matter. I think all these apparent nobody humans are not chosen randomly, but for their specific connection to Harry. Why pick on people just in Chicago? Why pick such weak hosts? I do believe Nemesis also is trying to create more chaos in the world, but the hosts are not totally at random. It could be as simple as the initial host was connected to Harry and Chicago, and so all the others are just the hosts that were available. It could also be much more specific and each host was chosen for how it would affect certain things. I believe that is more likely, considering how powerful Outsiders are and Walkers in particular.

Ah, I should have guessed. 

I believe that Aurora was certainly Nemesis controlled (since her fae nature prevents most other options), but not Sells/Denton/Kravos.  Lily isn't convincing for me; we already know she's been lied to.  I put those three at the Black Council's feet (also, for clarity, let's be specific about Black Council/Circle vs Black Court).  They are setting the stage for the Circle/Nemesis's first big move together (at least in a while) in GP targeting Lea and starting the wizard-vampire war.  They were doing things Nemesis liked, but I don't think Nemesis had the ability to jump into any of those three like he could for Cat Sith, for example. 

Justine is substantially different than any of the three early mortal villains.  She's not just a random mook.  She's a hook into both the White Court royalty (in two ways) and into the starborn that's been ruining so many things for Nemesis's BC buddies lately.

I'd also push back against Justin being Nemesis.  He's BC through and through.  (Fun fact, Justin was Simon Pietrovich's apprentice).

I agree though there is a difference between Nemesis infected villains, Black Court agents and those manipulated by them, and other nasty monsters. I think Arianna WAS destabilising the Red Court, she just didn't realise it. Think back to Maeve. So sure she was winning her own game against Mab - neither knowing nor caring for the repercussions. Maeve was almost deluded into believing she would rule instead of Mab but really she would have perished along with the rest. I think Arianna was blinded to her ambitions of going to the Lords of the Outer Night...never realising that the end result of her manipulations was going to be either the destruction of the Red Court or the Wizards. Neither matters to Nemesis...it just wants Empty Night. Remember how the it says everything that happened in Battle Ground was just an act of faith in "Empty Night"?

I'd say that Ariana was more blinded by getting revenge on Harry's family than her ambition, but that's not the point.  By removing the liability that is the Red King, she's strengthening the Red Court overall.  That's not destabilizing.  It's like Harry slamming his arm back into socket, painful at first, but quickly better.  Destroying the White Council would be stabilizing for the Red Court as well.  No more wizards killing them in a long war.  Ariana's actions are against the chaos that Nemesis prefers in order to bring about Empty Night.  Prolonging the war is what's good for Nemesis, not the RC winning.

Well, it's almost certain whoever gave the that curse to Sells (some really advanced dark magic, blood magic) also either taught it to the Red Court, or borrowed it from them to pass on. We've always assumed Black Court...but Nemesis could be the link as well. I don't know that Sells could have powered the curse past one individual.

Agreed.  I would imagine that the heart curse is an original Red Court/Mayan pantheon special that the BC came across (which makes a nice contribution for a Cowl=Simon Pietrovich vampire expert in the BC).  It hadn't been used in forever (Odin says over a millennium for Power on the Changes scale), so send it off to Chicago with a nobody to test before any enemies know you're plotting, hence Sells.  That way, they can figure out its requirements and limitations while simultaneously setting the stage for their big move in GP.  Later, it's an insurance policy for the WC getting the upper hand against the RC in order to prolong the war.

You know, I first thought of Agent Smith but then the more I thought about it the less it works. Agent Smith wanted to "perfect" everything. He hated all the humans, and then all the programs as well. He almost grew too powerful for his masters to control (at least, that's one interpretation). But Smith ended up taking over every program in the Matrix. He couldn't stop, becoming a self-replicating virus. Smith wasn't just one thing, it was a legion by the end. Which I think was deliberate by the Wachowskis. Anyway, Nemesis doesn't seem to take everything over or be a legion, as such. It more seems like a being that just enjoys destroying things, and just take's over it's host when it feels the need to. That's why I thought of it more of the regular Agents than Smith. Still though, anything is possible.

Yeah, I was mostly pointing out the process where Agent Smith took over susceptible targets.  We agree that Nemesis and Agent Smith are distinct philosophically.

[morriswalters]

Yes, and didn't Mab say not to even say the name "Nemesis" that often it give it power.  Yes, Listens to Wind also said that about the Skin Walker, but I believe Mab said it as well.  So are they all Nemesis?  If so Harry has known it by at least one of it's names most of his life.

I have no idea.  Jim is all over the map. But if he gets the proper names out of them then my inclination would be for them to be who they say they are.  Somebody else upstream is Nemesis.  Ruler to their Knights.

If Justine was taken on the page then it could have happened at Bianca's.  It would help explain why she didn't die when Thomas fed on her in Blood Rites.  If it happened off the page it probably occurred after the feeding and Nemesis stepped in to keep her alive. I vote for the second option. However by White Knight you have to consider that the left hand and the right hand don't speak. This because you have someone trying to decapitate the Whites while someone else is insinuated into the inner fold.

So here's my take. The Walkers are ground troops and Beside is the carrier.  He opens the door. This is implied by his true name. In Maeve and Aurora's case Beside took what was there and made it more. He never needed to control. It worked too well for Lea and she got nabbed by Mab. It worked on Cat Sith until Harry showed him the man behind the curtain. Then Nemesis entered through the door Beside created and wiped him clean. 

Justine was a special case.  Her personality was mostly gone and she was like an empty furnished house, Nemesis moved in and started wearing her clothes.

The only person who could have gotten to Aurora that we've met is Elaine Mallory. She may have been Cowls tool for attacking Summer. If Justine was killed by Harry or a Walker then Elaine may have been spirited away by Cowl, which would make her Kumori.

This if you accept my thesis that the books through Cold Days are about an attack on the Courts. Primarily Winter.