Odin's Raven's

[Yuillegan]

Love the science talk guys, let's be careful not to venture too close to the Touchy Topics areas. Discussion of the in-universe/story beginning of the Dresdenverse Creation is perfectly fine - but discussion on the beginning of our own is fraught with peril. Lots of people come here with many varied beliefs, so let's just keep it to the Dresden side of things when it comes to hypothesises and statements.

I agree Griffyn, that multiverse is a frustrating writing tool without strict rules (same for time travel really). That being said it can also lead to really interesting moments so it's hard to balance - which is too your point about writers often not being able to resist the allure of alternate stories and alternate characters etc.

Jim will do what he will. He likes the idea of an infinite multiverse. But I'd say that while every universe "matters" and so every choice in them (by mortals) "matters", not all universes matter as much as others, and it's hard to judge how many universes even exist without an external view. If you look at the Chronicles of Amber version (largely Jim's inspiration for his multiverse), it's not even clear that when characters step into Shadow universes whether that particular Shadow existed before the stepped into it. There's arguments both ways for whether any given Shadow existed before a visitor from Amber (or Chaos etc) stepped into it. Which isn't far from the argument in physics in some respects. Without empirical evidence it's intensely difficult to make a certain judgement. Which might be because of the very flaw in the argument i.e. something has to exist or not exist - yet apparently could be both. I mean, Hawking at one point came to the conclusion there didn't even have to be a "beginning" of everything, bizarre as that sounds. I suspect the Dresden Files multiverse plays by different rules to our universe though, so it might be foolish to use arguments from our own universe to make strong statements on anything.

I wouldn't even be surprised if the Dresden multiverse is so different in some respects that it is able to make more definite conclusions that we in our own universe seem to be able to. Maybe the physical laws are very close but have some slight yet important differences. That could change a whole lot.

At the end of the day though, Jim writes these books to be fun so it's probably best not to read too deeply into anything in them. But then, this forum wouldn't be needed so I might just be arguing against my own existence.

My apologies to all for derailing a thread about Odin's ravens and making it about the multiverse. Do we think Odin's ravens are part of him, or just spirits bound to him or constructs he made?

[Basil]

I actually did like Jordan's multiverse where if the Dark One won anywhere, he won everywhere.  That preserved the stakes -- even escalated them -- rather than drain them.  If Jim did something like that, I'd probably enjoy it.  If the Outsiders break into reality in any reality, then all versions reality is screwed.

[Yuillegan]

I used to think that was the case until Jim said Uriel had destroyed Universes before. Which to me suggests that the end result of the Outsiders breaking in isn't them destroying everything, it's an Archangel cleaning the slate.

[Griffyn612]

I used to think that was the case until Jim said Uriel had destroyed Universes before. Which to me suggests that the end result of the Outsiders breaking in isn't them destroying everything, it's an Archangel cleaning the slate.

Same thing, really. If one falls, they all fall, so they're destroyed rather than allowed to reach that point.

The relevance of the Dresdenverse would have to be that it's one of the last.

[K.L.O.E.]

Same thing, really. If one falls, they all fall, so they're destroyed rather than allowed to reach that point.

The relevance of the Dresdenverse would have to be that it's one of the last.

I could see Jim using Crisis on Infinite Earths as inspiration for the BAT, it is one of the OGs. Besides, anywhere there's time travel there's a multiverse and to quote an abridged perfect bug man "Multiverse Theory's a *****!"

Back on topic, I'm in the Hugin and Munin are pieces of Vadderung he splits off camp. They can act as eyes and ears remotely and they can mentally swap experiences after scouting or combat to help optimize strategies.

Given that we didn't see them engage with Ethniu or the Fomor I'm beginning to think they pulled the trigger on Gungnir frying the eye. Thoughts?

[Griffyn612]

I could see Jim using Crisis on Infinite Earths as inspiration for the BAT, it is one of the OGs. Besides, anywhere there's time travel there's a multiverse and to quote an abridged perfect bug man "Multiverse Theory's a *****!"

I've always figured Mirror Mirror will end with Uriel showing up and escorting Harry back to his timeline. Depending on how things go, it might be even more shocking if Harry sees the other timeline, and at the end gets pulled out by Uriel only to watch as a spectator as the timeline is obliterated. And then Uriel turns to Harry and says "there aren't many left".

Talk about pressure.

Back on topic, I'm in the Hugin and Munin are pieces of Vadderung he splits off camp. They can act as eyes and ears remotely and they can mentally swap experiences after scouting or combat to help optimize strategies.

Given that we didn't see them engage with Ethniu or the Fomor I'm beginning to think they pulled the trigger on Gungnir frying the eye. Thoughts?

Are you saying you think they blinked at Harry and then spoke through Vadderung when he couldn't?

I lean more towards it being Vadderung regaining consciousness a few minutes before, and triggering it when he thought it'd help.

I see H&M being non-combatants that help Vadderung stay weak enough to remain involved.

[Second Aristh]

I've always figured Mirror Mirror will end with Uriel showing up and escorting Harry back to his timeline. Depending on how things go, it might be even more shocking if Harry sees the other timeline, and at the end gets pulled out by Uriel only to watch as a spectator as the timeline is obliterated. And then Uriel turns to Harry and says "there aren't many left".

Talk about pressure.

Ah, that'd be a dramatic visual.

Are you saying you think they blinked at Harry and then spoke through Vadderung when he couldn't?

I lean more towards it being Vadderung regaining consciousness a few minutes before, and triggering it when he thought it'd help.

I see H&M being non-combatants that help Vadderung stay weak enough to remain involved.

Yeah, if we go by the sheared off pieces of Odin model, they may be too small of a piece to protect themselves properly for the amount of power they have.  Too juicy of a target for someone wanting to throw a sucker punch for later.  Odin might not want to risk them in a direct confrontation when there is too much unknown.

[Griffyn612]

Yeah, if we go by the sheared off pieces of Odin model, they may be too small of a piece to protect themselves properly for the amount of power they have.  Too juicy of a target for someone wanting to throw a sucker punch for later.  Odin might not want to risk them in a direct confrontation when there is too much unknown.

Considering they can shred steel with their fingernails, I wouldn't say they're weak in a fight.

But the risk does seem to outweigh the reward. Especially if they play integral roles in his intelligence apparatus.

[Second Aristh]

Considering they can shred steel with their fingernails, I wouldn't say they're weak in a fight.

But the risk does seem to outweigh the reward. Especially if they play integral roles in his intelligence apparatus.

Yeah against your run-of-the-mill stuff, sure, but when you're talking about things that might want to have a go at Odin, probably not so much.

[Griffyn612]

Yeah against your run-of-the-mill stuff, sure, but when you're talking about things that might want to have a go at Odin, probably not so much.

I can't think of anyone that would want to have a go at Odin. Other than maybe a spoiled kid that didn't like his Christmas stocking.

[Second Aristh]

I can't think of anyone that would want to have a go at Odin. Other than maybe a spoiled kid that didn't like his Christmas stocking.

Ferro 
I don't think he would in the current climate, but why take the risk?

[vincentric]

Yeah against your run-of-the-mill stuff, sure, but when you're talking about things that might want to have a go at Odin, probably not so much.

They wouldn't be much use as bodyguards if they couldn't go against things that want to take a shot at Odin would they? They seem confident that they could take Harry down with only a 50/50 chance of him getting one of them.

[Second Aristh]

They wouldn't be much use as bodyguards if they couldn't go against things that want to take a shot at Odin would they? They seem confident that they could take Harry down with only a 50/50 chance of him getting one of them.

But Harry's chances of taking Odin down are somewhere between slim and none.  He's not in the right league to be taking direct shots at Odin.  The ravens make great bodyguards for somebody like him, but don't bring them on the Ethniu fight.

[Yuillegan]

Same thing, really. If one falls, they all fall, so they're destroyed rather than allowed to reach that point.

The relevance of the Dresdenverse would have to be that it's one of the last.

My thinking is similar. There is a story line in the Lucifer comics (not the travesty of a TV show - I understand it might be enjoyable in it's own right but after reading the comics...yikes, complete miss), that Fenrir attempts to destroy all of reality by attacking Yggdrasil (one of the beginning places). If it falls, all of reality would. I can see something similar for the Dresden Files. It's not enough that Dresden's universe might fall, or might even be one of the last remaining, but the Outsiders are intending to destroy something fundamental to all Creation. A pillar of reality. If they fail to stop them, the Outsiders win everywhere.

I've always figured Mirror Mirror will end with Uriel showing up and escorting Harry back to his timeline. Depending on how things go, it might be even more shocking if Harry sees the other timeline, and at the end gets pulled out by Uriel only to watch as a spectator as the timeline is obliterated. And then Uriel turns to Harry and says "there aren't many left".

Talk about pressure.
Are you saying you think they blinked at Harry and then spoke through Vadderung when he couldn't?

I lean more towards it being Vadderung regaining consciousness a few minutes before, and triggering it when he thought it'd help.

I see H&M being non-combatants that help Vadderung stay weak enough to remain involved.

Wow, that would be a great scene! What a set up. Nothing to remind Dresden he's involved in a high-stakes game. Not to mention, it fits the pattern. Summer Knight, Death Masks, Dead Beat, Small Favor, Changes, Cold Days, and finally Battle Ground all set the stakes higher and higher. All were potential apocalypse scenarios had Harry not stopped the villains. They increase in magnitude and violence each time, and Harry learns things are even more on the line than he thought. So I can see Uriel opening up the problem to Dresden and saying "You thought you had it bad before...you had no idea" or something along those lines (in a more Uriel style).

Ferro 
I don't think he would in the current climate, but why take the risk?

I am sure Drakul wouldn't be too concerned either, but he seems to be a long-term kind of player. All the really dangerous guys don't miss. So if Ferro were to fight Vadderung, it would only be a fight he was sure he could win - unless he was desperate. Vadderung is exceedingly dangerous. He almost plays chicken with Ferro in Peace Talks. "Take a swing if you want, but make it count, because otherwise I'll take my swing and I'll put you down". It's that sort of thing. Immortals who have lived a really long time would have to be somewhat cautious by nature. Against puny mortals I doubt they get too worried, at least in smaller fights. But against other similarly powerful beings I am sure they're a bit more wary. Just on the off chance that the other guy might just have done his homework and is ready to kill him. Immortality is a hell of a thing to lose.

Also, I don't think the body guards were involved in the fight - at least, not at the Ethniu bit. They're sort of like bodyguards but they're also his agents. I wouldn't be surprised if they were doing sabotage or recon on the enemy while Vadderung was kickboxing with Ethniu. Makes for a hell of a distraction.