Mac's identity

[groinkick]

Uriel loaned his Grace temporarily to Michael a Holy Knight to complete  a mission, that isn't the same as giving his Grace away.

I'd say that keeping nightmares, and dark gods locked up is a pretty important mission.

[Yuillegan]

Also, not to be a downer but in Cold Days the magic is specifically described as mortal.

Not sure if it rules out the Grace theory definitively though.

“So arrogant,” Lily said. “You reek of arrogance and deception, like all wizards. Even the famous Merlin, who built this abomination.” Her eyes narrowed. “But as complex as it is, it is still made of mortal magic. This circle that we used to stop your interference—it’s a part of the architecture here. All we had to do was feed power into it to close this place against your allies while we tore it down from inside.”

[Mira]

I believe this to be misunderstood information (I don't understand it to be honest, it's paradoxical).  The Angels must have free will as we know it.  They were able to revolt (and fall).  Uriel was able to choose to lend his Grace to Michael knowing that there was a chance Michael would misuse it.  All of the Fallen who do bad things were Angels. 

I guess there could have been a change of some kind after the revolt and the angels are much more absolute (to the point of no free will) and unable to fall as long as they don't lend their grace out.

In that sense, yes, I guess you could say that angels have always had free will.  However they have rules, if they break them they fall, most, not all, but most angels chose not to pay that kind of price.

I think Uriel was acting under orders when he loaned his Grace out.  Maybe not to do that exact thing but to do whatever to insure the success of the mission.  I also think Uriel as the angelic wet works man has more wiggle room than most, but still for him it was a huge risk.. Though Michael might be the only mortal man living on the planet that he'd take such a risk with.

[Griffyn612]

Also, not to be a downer but in Cold Days the magic is specifically described as mortal.

Not sure if it rules out the Grace theory definitively though.

The magic was performed by Merlin. The spells are like Harry's. But the fuel could be the Grace.

Just like Harry casting the spell at Mac's in CD. Or was his magic, and his spell, but it was juiced by the Winter Knight mantle. Same for his spells at the end of GP, where he used the power he consumed from the Nightmare to summon the ghosts.

I mean, when you think about a mortal creating a prison to hold gods, devils, and everything in between, he's kind of *got* to have some extra juice from somewhere to get it done. We're talking about spells in at least four dimensions, per Bob possibly more.

All I'm saying is he borrowed the Grace to get the place built, and then he put it in Alfred, who is the vessel of the ongoing Grace. He's effectively the Demon Binder.

And Mac made his decision and is out.

[groinkick]

The magic was performed by Merlin. The spells are like Harry's. But the fuel could be the Grace.

Just like Harry casting the spell at Mac's in CD. Or was his magic, and his spell, but it was juiced by the Winter Knight mantle. Same for his spells at the end of GP, where he used the power he consumed from the Nightmare to summon the ghosts.

I mean, when you think about a mortal creating a prison to hold gods, devils, and everything in between, he's kind of *got* to have some extra juice from somewhere to get it done. We're talking about spells in at least four dimensions, per Bob possibly more.

All I'm saying is he borrowed the Grace to get the place built, and then he put it in Alfred, who is the vessel of the ongoing Grace. He's effectively the Demon Binder.

And Mac made his decision and is out.

Yeah I agree that there is some sort of power source that's required.  It could be all mortal magic doing the binding, but it's tied into a power generator to keep everything up and running.

There is the Ley line though that Rashid warned Harry about.  That could be the power source.  On the other hand I suspect that the ley line is actually something else.  I think it's the prisoners power being siphoned off, and sent to somewhere else.  Any power they try to exert is just redirected, leaving them powerless.

[Mira]

There is the Ley line though that Rashid warned Harry about.  That could be the power source.  On the other hand I suspect that the ley line is actually something else.  I think it's the prisoners power being siphoned off, and sent to somewhere else.  Any power they try to exert is just redirected, leaving them powerless.

Or any attempt to siphon it off sends such a jolt of dark raw godlike power to who ever tries that it
forever changes the user and not in a good way.  Though Rashid did leave it open that it was possible to use, but Harry ain't there yet... Hmmmm.... I wonder if Rashid tried at one time? And that is the grudge that the island has against him?

[Griffyn612]

Yeah I agree that there is some sort of power source that's required.  It could be all mortal magic doing the binding, but it's tied into a power generator to keep everything up and running.

There is the Ley line though that Rashid warned Harry about.  That could be the power source.  On the other hand I suspect that the ley line is actually something else.  I think it's the prisoners power being siphoned off, and sent to somewhere else.  Any power they try to exert is just redirected, leaving them powerless.

I think it was in the books that the prison was the source, and it was the power being shunted away.

The argument has been made before that maybe the prison uses the prisoner's power and puts it through a filter to purify it and remove the taint in order to run itself, and the ley line is the concentrated runoff of evil. But that still doesn't explain how Merlin managed to create it in the first place. It still seems beyond something a mortal can do, even if they were the greatest practitioner of all time and had the Blackstaff and other bric-a-brac.

[Mira]

I think it was in the books that the prison was the source, and it was the power being shunted away.

The argument has been made before that maybe the prison uses the prisoner's power and puts it through a filter to purify it and remove the taint in order to run itself, and the ley line is the concentrated runoff of evil. But that still doesn't explain how Merlin managed to create it in the first place. It still seems beyond something a mortal can do, even if they were the greatest practitioner of all time and had the Blackstaff and other bric-a-brac.

Yes, and no, I think let's go back to Rashid's warning to Harry. [bolding mine] Turn coat page 299

"First," he said, "do not tap into the power of this place's well. You are years away from being able to handle such a thing without being altered by it."

A couple of things might be gleaned from what he said, first he doesn't call it a ley line, he calls it a well.  It goes back to what he first said, that the the power doesn't come from a ley line..
He says;
Turn Coat, page 298

He gave me a tight smile.  "It wouldn't help you for me to say anything more---except one of your facts is incorrect.  The ley line you speak of does not go through the island," he said.  "This is where it wells up.  The island is it's source."

So while he won't tell Harry what the source of the power is, I believe Rashid knows, and thinks it important that Harry at least understands that the source of the power was no ley line.

Then when he actually warns Harry not to use this power source, he also says,You are years away from being able to handle such a thing without being altered by it."

I take that to mean that Rashid is saying that Harry is neither ready or strong enough to use it now without being seriously altered by it, but he might be able to use it in the future if he has to without coming to harm. 

When you read these two passages carefully what happens to Harry at the end of Battle Ground makes a lot more sense.  The Senior Council knows Harry is Warden of Demonreach, they know what happened to the last Warden, Kemmler.  I doubt they know Harry used the Spear as a power boost.  So to pull off a binding and snatch a Titan back to the island,  I'm thinking that many now think that Harry tapped into that power source, and is in danger of becoming another Kemmler.  That is what scares them, not his association with Mab or the White Court.

[morriswalters]

It's in Cold Days.  According to Bob it's the body heat of the prisoners.

Griffyn612's idea is as good as any other. It could also be that the enchantments are fractal in nature or it could be that he repurposed something else that had already existed, despite what Bob says.

[Mira]

It's in Cold Days.  According to Bob it's the body heat of the prisoners.

Yes, but also in Cold Days Harry admits that Bob doesn't everything about everything, that example being Soul Fire.  So Bob could be right about the body heat, but what if that very heat is what is up-welling from the island forming and powering the ley?   

[Second Aristh]

Yes, but also in Cold Days Harry admits that Bob doesn't everything about everything, that example being Soul Fire.  So Bob could be right about the body heat, but what if that very heat is what is up-welling from the island forming and powering the ley?

Yeah, prisoner BO is the source of the island's ley line.  It was pretty much stated outright.

[The_Sibelis]

I believe this to be misunderstood information (I don't understand it to be honest, it's paradoxical).  The Angels must have free will as we know it.  They were able to revolt (and fall).  Uriel was able to choose to lend his Grace to Michael knowing that there was a chance Michael would misuse it.  All of the Fallen who do bad things were Angels. 

I guess there could have been a change of some kind after the revolt and the angels are much more absolute (to the point of no free will) and unable to fall as long as they don't lend their grace out.

iirc, they can still fall, thinking it was in Woj talking about how they still have the one big choice switch to flip?
But, that doesn't actually make sense by itself. It's like, they have absolute free will, but are not allowed to exercise it without being cosmically effected by their actions.
With all the Meta on older creatures being mad about humanity usurping, I'm thinking the lack of free will wasn't always a thing perhaps?
The fallen for instance, did they rebel against long standing orders, or did they actually rebel during a changing of the status quo they disagreed with?
The former would imply absolute free will (as long as it doesn't violate cosmic decree) while the later to me, implies they reacted with free will to orders they disagreed with and we're punished.. I suppose that equals the same thing though. Looking at similar cases... Ghosts who don't stay on their side of the line, who interfere with humans or feed on other ghost become corrupted. The Nags refused to leave when it was their time and became corrupted by it.
It seems, they all can chose, but not following rules on those choices has consequences..
Makes me want to reconsider free will vs agency to effect fate. Where in, free will is the ability to change what choices you'd make in an particular circumstance and agency is the ability to effect the fate of others without consequence, to effect the flow of time. Angels aren't supposed to do either right? But they do have A will, even if it isn't free to act.. (did Uriel make a choice to give Michael his grace, or was he changed from his interactions with mortals around Harry? 🤔 It's been implied Lash never got free will, she just borrowed some of Harry's personality/choices basically making the same one he makes a few books later, to die under their own circumstances rather than live as something they perceive to be monsterous)