Mac's identity

[morriswalters]

Angels don't have free will, so exactly how did Mac ditch his grace? However there is someone in the text that would know how and isn't bound by any angelic restrictions.

[Second Aristh]

Angels don't have free will, so exactly how did Mac ditch his grace? However there is someone in the text that would know how and isn't bound by any angelic restrictions.

The same way Uriel did?  Give it to OG Merlin who uses it to create the prison.

[morriswalters]

Uriel was acting to take back Nic's knights, so I'm not seeing this as a violation of the rules.  Nor did he just give it away and go off to run a tavern in Chicago.

I see Mac as more of a guy who got tired of angelic wars who just walked away. As long as he had his grace, and chose to use it, the placard became a keep out of death card since with his grace Mac is an immortal.

[Second Aristh]

Uriel was acting to take back Nic's knights, so I'm not seeing this as a violation of the rules.  Nor did he just give it away and go off to run a tavern in Chicago.

I see Mac as more of a guy who got tired of angelic wars who just walked away. As long as he had his grace, and chose to use it, the placard became a keep out of death card since with his grace Mac is an immortal.

The Rules are still pretty mysterious.  I don't think it's clear that giving mortals the strength to choose to lock up the worst of the worst is outside the bounds.

Uriel got his Grace returned.  For a Mac=Raphael, that wouldn't be the case.  Might as well open a bar nearby.

[Yuillegan]

Angels don't have free will, so exactly how did Mac ditch his grace? However there is someone in the text that would know how and isn't bound by any angelic restrictions.

Actually, I think that they don't have unlimited free will as mortals do. I think it's important to qualify it. Clearly they have some measure of it otherwise they couldn't choose to Fall at all - Jim mentioned this in an interview some time back. But that isn't to say they have the same amount of freedom mortals do.

I suspect it really comes down to Angels really only having a small number of choices. Maybe only 2. They can choose to Fall, and go against their true nature (I'm assuming). Or they can choose not to Fall - which is a choice in itself. I'm not so sure that they can choose to redeem themselves...but I would like that to be the case.

Mortals on the other hand seem to be able to make choices left and right, but I think their choices either give them more or less freedom the more they make.

[Griffyn612]

Yeah, close enough.  I can get behind that.

I'm just not sure where the roots come into it, and if that was just inherent to using a genus loci, or if it's a world tree connection.

[groinkick]

I'm just not sure where the roots come into it, and if that was just inherent to using a genus loci, or if it's a world tree connection.

I'm thinking it's the roots of the world tree. 

[Ed0517]

I mean, Sharkface literally calls Mac empty and talks about grace in that line.  Pretty strong evidence of an angelic vessel that's given away Grace for a purpose.   

Not necessarily given for a purpose. Could be read as he fell by giving himself to worldly pleasures, and was stripped of his Grace.  More like squandered. And now, maybe by watching, he is trying to atone.

[Ed0517]

Here's a fun thought.

Where does wizardry come from? My wife and I have long thought it was something like a recessive Changeling- wizards being later-generation descendants of Scions, and that's part of why they "harden" as they get older, and why using their power starts to constrict their choices.

What if the Grigori fathered wizardry? In that case, Mac is watching over his descendants.

Could be. Wizards tend to run in families - Eb-Harry, Charity-Molly, Luccio has been checking on hers. The Knights appear, at least yet, to be descendants of kings - Charlemagne (Michael), Saladin (Sanya),  Shiro from the last king of Okinawa (Sho Tai? ). Harry was working that line of thought at one time.

In Simon Hawke's Wizard books all wizards are descended not from angels, but a supernatural race of Old Ones who subjugated humans, warred amongst themselves, and the humans all but wiped them out. Some went native and interbred - if you are a wizard you have some Old One lineage. Not near as intricate as the Dresden series, though. 

[Ed0517]

Angels don't have free will, so exactly how did Mac ditch his grace? However there is someone in the text that would know how and isn't bound by any angelic restrictions.

If he is Grigori, he lost his by ignoring the Watcher rules and becoming involved in the world - wine, women, and song. The Grigori are not damned to Hell - but they were told "Don't come back, you're fired". The Grace was stripped from them, not surrendered

(old TV show - "Branded" opening credits, a court-martialed Chuck Connors has his cavalry sabre taken and broken, his badges of rank ripped off, and he is sent out the gates of the stockade, and they close behind him.... something like that)

[Mira]

If he is Grigori, he lost his by ignoring the Watcher rules and becoming involved in the world - wine, women, and song. The Grigori are not damned to Hell - but they were told "Don't come back, you're fired". The Grace was stripped from them, not surrendered

(old TV show - "Branded" opening credits, a court-martialed Chuck Connors has his cavalry sabre taken and broken, his badges of rank ripped off, and he is sent out the gates of the stockade, and they close behind him.... something like that)

Yeah, I think that is about the closest to what he really is, I also think it is possible that he has been satisfied with his lot up until now.  The coming BAT is going to force Mac to take a stand once again which may atone for his mistakes in the past.  We've seen hints of that since Storm Front when he loaned his car keys to Harry so he could go and stop Victor Sells, to Battle Front when he put a smear of his blood on the back of the Placard and allowed it to be hung up in the bar.

[Griffyn612]

Angels don't have free will, so exactly how did Mac ditch his grace? However there is someone in the text that would know how and isn't bound by any angelic restrictions.

Uriel gave his Grace away. Maybe Raphael did too, knowing it'd be a lot longer before he got it back. A.K.A. the end of the world.

[Mira]

Uriel gave his Grace away. Maybe Raphael did too, knowing it'd be a lot longer before he got it back. A.K.A. the end of the world.

Uriel loaned his Grace temporarily to Michael a Holy Knight to complete  a mission, that isn't the same as giving his Grace away.

[Griffyn612]

Uriel loaned his Grace temporarily to Michael a Holy Knight to complete  a mission, that isn't the same as giving his Grace away.

By that argument, Raph could have loaned his Grace to Merlin for a couple thousand years to complete a mission.

[groinkick]

Angels don't have free will

I believe this to be misunderstood information (I don't understand it to be honest, it's paradoxical).  The Angels must have free will as we know it.  They were able to revolt (and fall).  Uriel was able to choose to lend his Grace to Michael knowing that there was a chance Michael would misuse it.  All of the Fallen who do bad things were Angels. 

I guess there could have been a change of some kind after the revolt and the angels are much more absolute (to the point of no free will) and unable to fall as long as they don't lend their grace out.