Mac's identity

[Griffyn612]

I think it's also interesting that Mab calls Raphael the Demon Binder (I think it was in SmF?).  There are alternative explanations, but if you're gonna call something a demon binder in the DV, somebody giving the juice for Demonreach is probably a good fit for the nickname.

Raphael isn't known for much in the source material, but what he *is* known for is binding demons. Twice at least. So it's a fitting description regardless.

But yeah, her comment in SmF wouldn't be about Mac. It'd be about Alfred. He's the vessel for the Grace (he calls himself a vessel), so Mab would see him as the bearer of the "mantle". So I think it could work.

[EBRIEN]

Upon rereading/listening to Proven Guilty, Lash describes the ward guarding the Carpenter's safe room as a working by Rafael or one of his lieutenants. I don't know that this entirely negates Mac as being Rafael, but I think it's food for thought. A nibble at least. 

[Griffyn612]

Upon rereading/listening to Proven Guilty, Lash describes the ward guarding the Carpenter's safe room as a working by Rafael or one of his lieutenants. I don't know that this entirely negates Mac as being Rafael, but I think it's food for thought. A nibble at least.

Yeah, that's come up before. The hand wave possibilities are

• Lasciel fell before Raphael would have transubstantiated and didn't recognize Mac for what he was. (seems unlikely)
• She started saying Raphael and then remembered he wouldn't be available so she added the leuitenant bit.
• She thinks Mac, even powerless, could have made the wards, and was in town to do so.
• These aren't the wards you're looking for.

[morriswalters]

I don't think Mac has lost his Grace, I think he has chosen not to use it.

[Mira]

I don't think Mac has lost his Grace, I think he has chosen not to use it.

Yes, I think there is something to that, I think Mac is unique.  For whatever reason he has opted out and has been granted that privilege, most of the supernatural community seems to understand that fact and don't question his status.  I think if he were condemned something would have stopped him from adding his blood to the Placard to protect those in the bar.

[groinkick]

Raphael isn't known for much in the source material, but what he *is* known for is binding demons. Twice at least. So it's a fitting description regardless.

But yeah, her comment in SmF wouldn't be about Mac. It'd be about Alfred. He's the vessel for the Grace (he calls himself a vessel), so Mab would see him as the bearer of the "mantle". So I think it could work.

One thing to note is that Harry said something about Alfred being an Elemental when being attacked by the Lady's.  Vulnerable to elemental magic?  I don't remember.  But it may be a clue

[Second Aristh]

One thing to note is that Harry said something about Alfred being an Elemental when being attacked by the Lady's.  Vulnerable to elemental magic?  I don't remember.  But it may be a clue

The fae are the collective nature spirits of the world's cultures.  As a genus loci, Alfred isn't too far away from that realm.  As rulers of those nature spirits, the Ladies had some limited amount of Authority they could use to influence the genus loci.  Not enough to be definitive or give commands to it, but the one of the Ladies probably stood a better chance than say the Archive would.  Even though she has a similiar magnitude of power.

[Griffyn612]

One thing to note is that Harry said something about Alfred being an Elemental when being attacked by the Lady's.  Vulnerable to elemental magic?  I don't remember.  But it may be a clue

I couldn't find a reference to Alfred being "vulnerable" or an "elemental", but I doubt read, I just used word search, so there may be something similar.

I did see where bits were coming off of Alfred's form, so the attack was doing something. But Mab seemed to imply that he could done more, which I took to mean Alfred could have taken them out. So I'm not sure how vulnerable he actually was to only a frontal assault without the big spell elsewhere.

[Second Aristh]

I couldn't find a reference to Alfred being "vulnerable" or an "elemental", but I doubt read, I just used word search, so there may be something similar.

I did see where bits were coming off of Alfred's form, so the attack was doing something. But Mab seemed to imply that he could done more, which I took to mean Alfred could have taken them out. So I'm not sure how vulnerable he actually was to only a frontal assault without the big spell elsewhere.

It's in ch.50 of CD

Not only that, but Demonreach was a genius loci, a nature spirit.  The fae were intimately connected to nature on a level that no one had ever been able to fully understand.  One could probably make an argument that Demonreach was one of the fae, or at least a very close neighbor.  Either way, the mantles of the Ladies of Winter and Summer would carry a measure of dominion and power over beings like Demonreach.  Clearly they were not sovereign over the guardian spirit, because it was withstanding them.  Just as clearly, they had something going for them, because it wasn't trying to crush them either.

The "elemental" idea probably came from ch.48

And suddenly I felt very stupid.  What the fuck had I been thinking?  The Queens of Faerie, even the least of them, were elemental powers, something that was simply out of the league of any mortal.

[Mira]

I couldn't find a reference to Alfred being "vulnerable" or an "elemental", but I doubt read, I just used word search, so there may be something similar.

I did see where bits were coming off of Alfred's form, so the attack was doing something. But Mab seemed to imply that he could done more, which I took to mean Alfred could have taken them out. So I'm not sure how vulnerable he actually was to only a frontal assault without the big spell elsewhere.

The full defenses of the island weren't up at that time either, Harry was named Warden, but other than be aware of all the crap that was going on, he didn't know how to run it yet.  What I am saying without his Warden, Alfred is vulnerable along with the island..  At the end of Ghost Story Mab referred to Harry as Alfred's Custodian.  I think it is more complicated than just responsibility for the island, Alfred's welfare is also Harry's responsibility.  Maeve's timing was no accident, if she had delayed and Harry had time to learn his job, I doubt she would have gotten as far as she did.  She wouldn't get that far now, at the end of Battle Ground Harry said that HWWB tried to sneak in as Justine because now it had to be let in, otherwise it couldn't breech the island's defenses.

[groinkick]

I couldn't find a reference to Alfred being "vulnerable" or an "elemental", but I doubt read, I just used word search, so there may be something similar.

I did see where bits were coming off of Alfred's form, so the attack was doing something. But Mab seemed to imply that he could done more, which I took to mean Alfred could have taken them out. So I'm not sure how vulnerable he actually was to only a frontal assault without the big spell elsewhere.

"Demonreach was a genius loci, a nature spirit.  The fae were intimately connected to nature on a level that no one had ever been able to fully understand.  One could probably make an argument that Demonreach was one of the fae, or at least a very close neighbor." Cold Days page 473 Hard Cover.

Harry of course isn't a perfect source of information, and that doesn't discount Angel's being involved.  I wouldn't be surprised if an Archangel were powering it, with angel wards + Merlin using mortal magic + Sidhe magic all working together to bind the evil's that are there.

[Griffyn612]

It's in ch.50 of CD
The "elemental" idea probably came from ch.48

That makes sense. I'd probably argue that Harry was partly guessing at that point, based on Mab thanking Alfred for not handling things differently. I'm guessing he could have smacked them down, and Harry's presumption that he hadn't because he couldn't was likely wrong.

But I can definitely see where they might have some agency over the aspects of Alfred that are tied to nature.

"Demonreach was a genius loci, a nature spirit.  The fae were intimately connected to nature on a level that no one had ever been able to fully understand.  One could probably make an argument that Demonreach was one of the fae, or at least a very close neighbor." Cold Days page 473 Hard Cover.

Harry of course isn't a perfect source of information, and that doesn't discount Angel's being involved.  I wouldn't be surprised if an Archangel were powering it, with angel wards + Merlin using mortal magic + Sidhe magic all working together to bind the evil's that are there.

I think it's definitely more than just angelic Grace running things. But the fact that the raw power of the circle invoked Molly to think her mom would talk in her church voice seems suggestive of the nature of it.

[Second Aristh]

That makes sense. I'd probably argue that Harry was partly guessing at that point, based on Mab thanking Alfred for not handling things differently. I'm guessing he could have smacked them down, and Harry's presumption that he hadn't because he couldn't was likely wrong.

But I can definitely see where they might have some agency over the aspects of Alfred that are tied to nature.
I think it's definitely more than just angelic Grace running things. But the fact that the raw power of the circle invoked Molly to think her mom would talk in her church voice seems suggestive of the nature of it.

Yeah, I don't think "couldn't smack them down" is accurate, but the fact that it wasn't clear cut whether or not they actually had some small valid authority over him gave Alfred pause about whether or not it would be an appropriate action.

To make a metaphor, I think angelic grace is the original power and framework forming the prison, evil B.O. helps to power it and keep it going (like those finger trap toys where pulling harder actually works against you), and the genus loci is the user interface for utilizing it.

[Griffyn612]

Yeah, I don't think "couldn't smack them down" is accurate, but the fact that it wasn't clear cut whether or not they actually had some small valid authority over him gave Alfred pause about whether or not it would be an appropriate action.

To make a metaphor, I think angelic grace is the original power and framework forming the prison, evil B.O. helps to power it and keep it going (like those finger trap toys where pulling harder actually works against you), and the genus loci is the user interface for utilizing it.

I'm close to that, but without tapping the Well to power it. I don't think there's a need for that if the build with the Grace was done correctly, and if it was an archangel's Grace.

If Michael borrowed a jumbo jet to use as a pen light, then I think Merlin borrowed a jet liner, tore the wings off, shoved the fuselage in the ground, stuffed it full of inmates, and used the engines to eject their oxygen up and out so they're too weak to try to escape, took a pre-existing shepherd of the land and gave it control in the cockpit, and slapped a headset on it, told it to obey whatever the person on the other end said to do, and gave it the ability to pick who was worthy of holding the other headset.

Admittedly that's being a bit literal with the analogy, but still.

Meanwhile the former pilot is Out of a job based on the Choice he made. All he was left with was the drink cart, so he wandered off and opened a bar.

[Second Aristh]

I'm close to that, but without tapping the Well to power it. I don't think there's a need for that if the build with the Grace was done correctly, and if it was an archangel's Grace.

If Michael borrowed a jumbo jet to use as a pen light, then I think Merlin borrowed a jet liner, tore the wings off, shoved the fuselage in the ground, stuffed it full of inmates, and used the engines to eject their oxygen up and out so they're too weak to try to escape, took a pre-existing shepherd of the land and gave it control in the cockpit, and slapped a headset on it, told it to obey whatever the person on the other end said to do, and gave it the ability to pick who was worthy of holding the other headset.

Admittedly that's being a bit literal with the analogy, but still.

Meanwhile the former pilot is Out of a job based on the Choice he made. All he was left with was the drink cart, so he wandered off and opened a bar.

Yeah, close enough.  I can get behind that.