Damn, Maeve really did win

[Second Aristh]

I'm not sure what you mean about Mab ordering Harry to kill her? But what Mab or Titania wants doesn't really have a bearing. Titania didn't "want" Lily, but she was the closest vessel compatible to the summer lady mantle when it was vulnerable so it went into her.

Likewise, if Molly hadn't been there, but one of the nine winter Sidhe present to help Maeve had been female, it seems likely that they would have been candidates over Justine or Murphy.

Since the mantle didn't go to any of them, we can speculate that they weren't female or weren't compatible for other reasons. Or the mantle felt like Molly, despite being only human with wizard blood, was a better fit.

Probably referencing Mab's comment in BG before the Eye showdown.  I think the point was that even if the Lady mantle chooses someone that Mab disapproves of, as long as Mab knows where it is, she can kill the new Lady in the presence of a more suitable candidate. 

[Mira]

I'm not sure what you mean about Mab ordering Harry to kill her? But what Mab or Titania wants doesn't really have a bearing. Titania didn't "want" Lily, but she was the closest vessel compatible to the summer lady mantle when it was vulnerable so it went into her.

In Battle Ground, just after Murphy is killed, Mab orders Harry to kill Molly if she doesn't survive.  She goes on to tell him why, though Molly has the makings of a good Lady, she would be horrible for everyone as Queen... What I am saying and why it has bearing, if Mab feels that way now, she felt that way then... Which is the reason why she had ordered Harry to kill Maeve, even if it wasn't him that ended up doing it.  Titania lost her daughter, she accepted Lily but for how long? Because she had many short comings, she may have had to have her killed also.. And if she wasn't satisfied with Sarissa, I don't think Titania would hesitate to order her killed.  Heck she may have wanted Lily dead, but Fix loved her and may have talked Titania out of it.

[Griffyn612]

In Battle Ground, just after Murphy is killed, Mab orders Harry to kill Molly if she doesn't survive.  She goes on to tell him why, though Molly has the makings of a good Lady, she would be horrible for everyone as Queen... What I am saying and why it has bearing, if Mab feels that way now, she felt that way then... Which is the reason why she had ordered Harry to kill Maeve, even if it wasn't him that ended up doing it.  Titania lost her daughter, she accepted Lily but for how long? Because she had many short comings, she may have had to have her killed also.. And if she wasn't satisfied with Sarissa, I don't think Titania would hesitate to order her killed.  Heck she may have wanted Lily dead, but Fix loved her and may have talked Titania out of it.

Ah, right, gotta.

Probably referencing Mab's comment in BG before the Eye showdown.  I think the point was that even if the Lady mantle chooses someone that Mab disapproves of, as long as Mab knows where it is, she can kill the new Lady in the presence of a more suitable candidate. 

My only comment would be that Mab might have to have Molly killed, rather than kill her herself, if she decided to not keep her. Mostly because Molly may still technically be mortal, and Molly didn't make a contract with Mab like Harry did.

But I think there was WoJ about Molly accepting the mantle, so maybe she's signed on and owned just like Harry.

[morriswalters]

I'm pretty sure that was a personal warning to Harry.  He's always denied Molly the one thing she wanted.  Him.  As Queen she could have him.  And Harry wouldn't have a choice.  Molly's a little twisted, at least the way Jim has written her.  That might make her a lot twisted. The quote is.

“As Winter Lady, she shows promise,” Mab said. “But she is not ready to become Mab. The consequences would be . . . unsettling. For both of you. Perhaps for all of Winter.”

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 220). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

As long as her emotions rule her still Harry would be in danger.

Probably not. But there's two things to consider regarding the possible hosts.

• Justine knew Molly was there in the circle. If she was infected, then Nemesis likely knew. If Maeve was infected, then Nemesis could have told her in her head. So she might have meant Murphy, or she might have meant Molly.
• There were nine Sidhe in each retinue, not counting Red and Rawhead. That's at least nine candidates of Summer Sidhe that should have been compatible if they were female, and possibly some from Winter in a pinch. The question is, were they all male by design, or were there any females? If so, were they potential hosts as well?

I don't think that the infection works like that. I think it's an amplification of something that is in everybody, some weakness.  And the infection acts like a reinforcement of that weakness. That's basically how it worked with Cat Sith. He hated serving Harry and the voice whispered to him to kill Harry.  When Harry points it out, Cat Sith resisted and was destroyed. I'm not sure that there is anything left of Justine.

Mab on the other hand had Molly prepared, however the Queen does that kind of thing.  It was Mab's choice where that mantle went.

[Second Aristh]

My only comment would be that Mab might have to have Molly killed, rather than kill her herself, if she decided to not keep her. Mostly because Molly may still technically be mortal, and Molly didn't make a contract with Mab like Harry did.

But I think there was WoJ about Molly accepting the mantle, so maybe she's signed on and owned just like Harry.

For sure there might be extra steps to get things done, but it's an option.  I think Molly counts pretty much as fae for the purposes of Winter Law anyway.

[Griffyn612]

For sure there might be extra steps to get things done, but it's an option.  I think Molly counts pretty much as fae for the purposes of Winter Law anyway.

Certainly possible.

I don't think that the infection works like that. I think it's an amplification of something that is in everybody, some weakness.  And the infection acts like a reinforcement of that weakness. That's basically how it worked with Cat Sith. He hated serving Harry and the voice whispered to him to kill Harry.  When Harry points it out, Cat Sith resisted and was destroyed. I'm not sure that there is anything left of Justine.

Mab on the other hand had Molly prepared, however the Queen does that kind of thing.  It was Mab's choice where that mantle went.

We don't know much for sure about the infection, but we know that the host can recover from Beside taking control. He took control of Lea in Proven Guilty, and she bounced back.

[morriswalters]

We don't know that Beside ever took control.  And Lea is still subject to infection as she states in Changes.

“A madness had beset me,” she whispered. “Robbed me of myself. Treacherous gifts . . .” She shook her head. “I can think on it no more, lest it make me vulnerable once again. Suffice to say that I am much better now.” She stroked a fingertip over an icy white streak in her hair. “The strength of my queen prevailed, and my mind is mine own.”

I tend to look on this like schizophrenia in that you can control it but you can't cure it.

[Griffyn612]

We don't know that Beside ever took control.  And Lea is still subject to infection as she states in Changes.I tend to look on this like schizophrenia in that you can control it but you can't cure it.

But she literally says she can't keep it from controlling her.

   “No time,” she said, voice strained again. “I
cannot long keep it from taking hold of…” She
shuddered and lowered her head. She lifted her
face to me a few seconds later, and the madness
had returned to her eyes. “Wait,” she rasped. “I
have reconsidered. Free me.”
   I traded a look with Thomas, and we both took a
cautious step backward.
   Lea’s face twisted up with rage and she let out a
howl that shook icicles from their positions.
“Release me!”

I read that as Beside taking over. Maybe there's an argument that infection causes multiple personality disorder, and the newer personality took over. But Maeve was the same, just amplified. Same for Aurora. They were doing what they always wanted to do, just in twisted ways.

Lea and Cat Sith both defy their own nature, and both times it's appears to be due to another personality, which appears to be Beside.

[Mira]

I read that as Beside taking over. Maybe there's an argument that infection causes multiple personality disorder, and the newer personality took over. But Maeve was the same, just amplified. Same for Aurora. They were doing what they always wanted to do, just in twisted ways.

Interesting that you'd say that, often the result of strokes and some other types of brain injury, is the normal restraints or self control we put upon ourselves is lost.  So I wonder if an MRI of someone infected with Nemesis would show damage to these parts of the brain?  Only Nemesis goes a step further, because it takes over control of those parts of the brain?  Maeve had self control issues before she was infected, Nemesis attacked those parts of her brain, so she lost all self control, then began to dictate her actions.  She wouldn't be aware of it and since her prior behavior flirted with outrageous anyway, no one noticed that anything was wrong until it was too late to cure. 

[Snark Knight]

I don't think that the infection works like that. I think it's an amplification of something that is in everybody, some weakness.  And the infection acts like a reinforcement of that weakness.

Agreed. I don't think it's a knowledge-sharing psychic internet between infectees. Maeve implied she was going to have Justine forcibly infected afterward if she won on the island. So either she didn't even know, or she was saying that to reinforce Justine's cover in case she lost. I don't think she even conceived failing as a possibility at that point.

[Arjan]

But she literally says she can't keep it from controlling her.

That was then. It is probably a power struggle and Nemesis is strong but Lea could at some point gain enough control to run to her queen for help and she also managed to communicate with Harry before Nemesis took over again.

It might work like with the ape demon in blood rites. If the demon is spread thin over 13 instances each instance is weaker. So Nemesis is not at all times equally strong.

[morriswalters]

But she literally says she can't keep it from controlling her.
I read that as Beside taking over. Maybe there's an argument that infection causes multiple personality disorder, and the newer personality took over. But Maeve was the same, just amplified. Same for Aurora. They were doing what they always wanted to do, just in twisted ways.

Lea and Cat Sith both defy their own nature, and both times it's appears to be due to another personality, which appears to be Beside.

Lea won and Cat Sith lost. Had Beside won, Lea would have been lost. But apparently he can whisper sweet nothings but not truly communicate if he isn't at the helm. Imagine someone whispering in your ear saying something you want to be true, that caters to your fears and all those imagined slights.

An ex smoker would understand precisely what I'm saying. That voice is there waiting for you to let down your guard, telling you stories, all the time, for years.

[Griffyn612]

That was then. It is probably a power struggle and Nemesis is strong but Lea could at some point gain enough control to run to her queen for help and she also managed to communicate with Harry before Nemesis took over again.

It might work like with the ape demon in blood rites. If the demon is spread thin over 13 instances each instance is weaker. So Nemesis is not at all times equally strong.

Lea won and Cat Sith lost. Had Beside won, Lea would have been lost. But apparently he can whisper sweet nothings but not truly communicate if he isn't at the helm. Imagine someone whispering in your ear saying something you want to be true, that caters to your fears and all those imagined slights.

An ex smoker would understand precisely what I'm saying. That voice is there waiting for you to let down your guard, telling you stories, all the time, for years.

My point is, the argument that Justine is lost forever because Beside took the wheel isn't supported by the text, because it appears that we saw Beside take the wheel with Lea, and she came back from it.

[Second Aristh]

My interpretation of Mab's treatment of Lea was as Mab creating an ice wall in Lea's mind to keep Beside out.  As long as Lea puts up with that discomfort and doesn't scratch away at it, she can't be controlled.  Thinking about it is that scratching.  In Arctis Tor, the wall hadn't been fully constructed yet, hence Beside going with a Hail Mary ploy for Harry to release Lea.

I'd be concerned about the strain it would put on a mortal like Justine to undergo Mab's treatment.

[morriswalters]

My point is, the argument that Justine is lost forever because Beside took the wheel isn't supported by the text, because it appears that we saw Beside take the wheel with Lea, and she came back from it.

You could be right.  It will be interesting to see what Jim does with it.