Damn, Maeve really did win

[Mira]

I think Justine was infected just before when she was captured.

Possible, but I agree with Griffyn612, that she was infected way earlier.  Interesting coincidence don't you think that vamp feeding on her emotions would keep her insanity in check, then when she is almost killed by it she is suddenly cured?  I think as late as Grave Peril she still appeared a bit unstable mentally, but feeding kept it in check.  Not saying that true love didn't happen between her and Thomas, but when it did, it gave HWWB an opening.. At some point during Ghost Story the plan began to be implemented, that being the lesbian sex work around that made sex between her and Thomas possible.  Because of the infertility of WCVamps in general they knew that actual conception would take a while.   

[Second Aristh]

As far as Maeve's comment, I could also see that as similar to the mirrors in Molly's soulgaze.  Not really a sign that a grandmaster strategist is making a move, but a nice easter egg for us to look back upon.  Maeve was right, but she had no idea how right she was.

The timeline for Justine's infection is an interesting one.  Nemesis says it was ever since Justine had become close to Lara, but that might not be reliable.  Justine saving a child from the Fomor in the Marcone short story muddies the water for motivations there as well.  As an Important Story Event^TM, Justine getting Nemfected probably happened in the background of one of the main books where some kind of throwaway line is a clue.  CD is an obvious candidate, but are there earlier possibilities?

[BrainFireBob]

Remember: Nemfection is a deal- you change some part of who you immutably are, but until it cranks itself up to 11, you're still you.

Maeve was Nemfected and gained the ability to lie- but was still Maeve. We don't know what it offered Lea or what she wanted to do with it- I'm hoping for a reveal that she really does have a maternal bond with Dresden on her own, crazy-demented side and was looking for freedom to not have to deal in bargains (gaining the ability to unilaterally act), something of that sort.

Lara told us that someone fed upon into mental incompetence, like Justine, was unlikely to recover. If Nemesis was able to offer her mind back- without the crazy hormones- she would still seem Justine to herself and us until Nemesis was ready to do otherwise.

I do like how Nemesis is written. It's so <i>Needful Things</i>.

[Mira]

Lara told us that someone fed upon into mental incompetence, like Justine, was unlikely to recover. If Nemesis was able to offer her mind back- without the crazy hormones- she would still seem Justine to herself and us until Nemesis was ready to do otherwise.

If that is what it did, it could be even before "Blood Rites."  Remember in "Grave Peril", a key book in so many ways, we learn that she is mentally ill, but being feed upon keeps her stable.. Well, Nemesis doesn't do it's work in a day, so there's an in.  The son of Lord Raith being the one who is doing the feeding, plus I imagine Nemesis also knows who is the half brother to Thomas.  Justine, beautiful and sweet in her own right would be easy to fall in love with.. The big near fatal feeding in "Blood Rites" set her up to be Lara's assistant..

[Snark Knight]

But Mab knew that, where Harry was, Molly was.  Mab won. The mantle was never in danger. The hapless mortal would have been Murphy, Justine was Maeve's ally.

Was Karrin even a compatible vessel? I think but for Molly, the mantle might have gone flying off the island entirely to some random changeling who'd been having sufficient contact with their Sidhe kin to qualify.

[Snark Knight]

Then she had true love protection, which makes her ideal as an assistant for Lara, as she's untouchable to internal manipulation. But yeah, the mental clarity should have rung bells. It's just hard to know if that was due to character growth, plot necessity, or specific cause.

I'd attributed it to Lara sponsoring appropriate mental health treatment. Which she may have been doing quite in addition to the Nemesis infection - she pretty well had to take steps to replace the stabilizing effects of Thomas' feeding in order to change a deeply ill hostage into a high-functioning executive assistant. She had no idea Beside was already steadying the wheel from the passenger seat, so to speak.

[Mira]

Was Karrin even a compatible vessel? I think but for Molly, the mantle might have gone flying off the island entirely to some random changeling who'd been having sufficient contact with their Sidhe kin to qualify.

That isn't all that clear, I think the mantle still could have gone into Murphy.

[Second Aristh]

That isn't all that clear, I think the mantle still could have gone into Murphy.

Possibly, but I think Justine would have been a better fit for it than her. A young, very pretty, blonde woman that habitually interacts with magical predators that radiate cold?

My initial interpretation was that Maeve was alluding to the mantle flying off the island to an unknown vessel that could be snatched up and vanished.

[Arjan]

Remember: Nemfection is a deal- you change some part of who you immutably are, but until it cranks itself up to 11, you're still you.

Not necessarily. Aurora never knew or understood what happened to her and Cat Sith tried to fight it as soon as he understood what was going on.

It can make deals but sometimes it just takes over and sometimes it influences the host without anyone being aware of it.

[The_Sibelis]

Not necessarily. Aurora never knew or understood what happened to her and Cat Sith tried to fight it as soon as he understood what was going on.

It can make deals but sometimes it just takes over and sometimes it influences the host without anyone being aware of it.

I think making deals is just it taking advantage of the inherent nature of certain beings, and the actual metaphysical aspects behind exchange that so governs the fae to behave towards it the way they do. It opens a vector beings like Nemesis can take advantage of.

[Mira]

Possibly, but I think Justine would have been a better fit for it than her. A young, very pretty, blonde woman that habitually interacts with magical predators that radiate cold?

That could also describe Murphy..  While she isn't described as pretty, she is described as "cute." She may not be as young as Justine, but she wasn't exactly old either.  She hung out with a wizard who can at times be called a predator,  plus he is the Winter Knight..  She was also tough as nails something Mab could appreciate.

[morriswalters]

Was Karrin even a compatible vessel? I think but for Molly, the mantle might have gone flying off the island entirely to some random changeling who'd been having sufficient contact with their Sidhe kin to qualify.

It's apparently what Maeve thought.  Could the mantle cross the circle?

[Griffyn612]

It's apparently what Maeve thought.  Could the mantle cross the circle?

Probably not. But there's two things to consider regarding the possible hosts.

• Justine knew Molly was there in the circle. If she was infected, then Nemesis likely knew. If Maeve was infected, then Nemesis could have told her in her head. So she might have meant Murphy, or she might have meant Molly.
• There were nine Sidhe in each retinue, not counting Red and Rawhead. That's at least nine candidates of Summer Sidhe that should have been compatible if they were female, and possibly some from Winter in a pinch. The question is, were they all male by design, or were there any females? If so, were they potential hosts as well?

[Mira]

Probably not. But there's two things to consider regarding the possible hosts.

• Justine knew Molly was there in the circle. If she was infected, then Nemesis likely knew. If Maeve was infected, then Nemesis could have told her in her head. So she might have meant Murphy, or she might have meant Molly.
• There were nine Sidhe in each retinue, not counting Red and Rawhead. That's at least nine candidates of Summer Sidhe that should have been compatible if they were female, and possibly some from Winter in a pinch. The question is, were they all male by design, or were there any females? If so, were they potential hosts as well?

  Potential hosts maybe, but acceptable to Mab?  Or Titania for that matter, considering the disaster the last two Ladies were..  Consider Molly, as effective as she has been as Lady, Mab orders Harry to kill her if she became Queen.

[Griffyn612]

  Potential hosts maybe, but acceptable to Mab?  Or Titania for that matter, considering the disaster the last two Ladies were..  Consider Molly, as effective as she has been as Lady, Mab orders Harry to kill her if she became Queen.

I'm not sure what you mean about Mab ordering Harry to kill her? But what Mab or Titania wants doesn't really have a bearing. Titania didn't "want" Lily, but she was the closest vessel compatible to the summer lady mantle when it was vulnerable so it went into her.

Likewise, if Molly hadn't been there, but one of the nine winter Sidhe present to help Maeve had been female, it seems likely that they would have been candidates over Justine or Murphy.

Since the mantle didn't go to any of them, we can speculate that they weren't female or weren't compatible for other reasons. Or the mantle felt like Molly, despite being only human with wizard blood, was a better fit.