Did Carlos betray Dresden? Other things in the book

[groinkick]

1.  In Battle Ground, Carlos tells Dresden that the Council had voted him out, and sited his killing mortal during the battle.  But that really doesn't convince me.  Why?  Because in Peace Talks, Eb informed Dresden that the Council was holding a vote to kick Harry out, and it didn't look good, and it was going to be voted on during the peace talks.

This is where I'm wondering if either Carlos betrayed Harry, or if Carlos is being manipulated.  Eb told Harry that he should go and talk to Council members.  Shake hands, and give his side of things.  He thought Harry could swing the vote in his favor.  But Harry couldn't because Carlos had already brought Harry on to his security detail.  Not only that but Carlos was in charge of who he put on his team.  So when Harry could have gone to speak to the Council to avoid being kicked out, he couldn't because he was on security detail thanks to Carlos. 

It seems so suspicious that during the vote, Harry is kept away from defending himself because of a decision Carlos made.  Coincidence?  I don't think so.

2.  Does the Council know something about Mab that Dresden is clueless about?  Nemfected suspected?  Two people told Harry that a big part of him being kicked out was Mab.  Carlos said it started with Mab, and Eb said that him working with her was a factor. 

I know that Mab isn't a "good person", but to my knowledge she protects reality from Outsiders, and even though she's pretty cold (lol), she's honest and as long as you aren't stupid enough to get caught in the Sidhe's web, you shouldn't have any problems.  And yet here is Harry being considered a threat because he's her Knight.  Why?  What would make Harry so dangerous working for her?  Is she a threat to the White Council?  Their actions are out of her purview, unless they are messing around with Outsiders in which case she might just send Harry to take them down.  But the Council is against Outsiders so it shouldn't be a factor.  Eb mentioned Mab having a known warlock as a Lady (Molly).  Again why would they care?  To me it sounds like they know, or at least think they know Mab has been compromised.  They are worried about her, and doing what they can to neutralize her mortal weapon.

3.  Someone is moving chess pieces around (Odin)?  Maybe it's just story plot, and I'm looking too much into this but here it goes.  Harry was manipulated into being at the peace talks, in my opinion.  He could have been defending himself at the Council but was unable to because of being brought on as security.  So this leads to him being kicked out. 

However if Harry had been with the Council, it would have been a disaster for Chicago because the Titan arrived and only Harry was able to lock her away.  It's not only that though.  The Titan had been betrayed by the other Starborn.  If Maggie had been truly killed, Harry probably wouldn't have been able to bind her but he realized she wasn't because Mouse's body wasn't there.  The Titan realized she'd been betrayed which indicates someone wanted Harry to lock her up, but who?  Odin?  Mab? Drakul?

I don't know what it means but it feels like one group (or person) is using Harry for important tasks while another group (or person) is doing what they can to isolate him, make him vulnerable.  Or could it all be the same actor who's doing this?

[Mira]

1.  In Battle Ground, Carlos tells Dresden that the Council had voted him out, and sited his killing mortal during the battle.  But that really doesn't convince me.  Why?  Because in Peace Talks, Eb informed Dresden that the Council was holding a vote to kick Harry out, and it didn't look good, and it was going to be voted on during the peace talks.

This is where I'm wondering if either Carlos betrayed Harry, or if Carlos is being manipulated.  Eb told Harry that he should go and talk to Council members.  Shake hands, and give his side of things.  He thought Harry could swing the vote in his favor.  But Harry couldn't because Carlos had already brought Harry on to his security detail.  Not only that but Carlos was in charge of who he put on his team.  So when Harry could have gone to speak to the Council to avoid being kicked out, he couldn't because he was on security detail thanks to Carlos.

It seems so suspicious that during the vote, Harry is kept away from defending himself because of a decision Carlos made.  Coincidence?  I don't think so.

Agreed, don't forget that Carlos secretly put that tracking device on Harry in the first chapter of Peace Talks.  I think Carlos did betray Harry, but I also think he was manipulated by someone. It isn't for nothing that Jim wrote that little short story where Carlos gets mauled by Molly.  That sets the stage, injured and God knows how badly his pride was hurt by this, someone could easily manipulate a vulnerable Carlos into a pretty big grudge against Winter and convince him that one of his best friends a monster.

2.  Does the Council know something about Mab that Dresden is clueless about?  Nemfected suspected?  Two people told Harry that a big part of him being kicked out was Mab.  Carlos said it started with Mab, and Eb said that him working with her was a factor.

I know that Mab isn't a "good person", but to my knowledge she protects reality from Outsiders, and even though she's pretty cold (lol), she's honest and as long as you aren't stupid enough to get caught in the Sidhe's web, you shouldn't have any problems.  And yet here is Harry being considered a threat because he's her Knight.  Why?  What would make Harry so dangerous working for her?  Is she a threat to the White Council?  Their actions are out of her purview, unless they are messing around with Outsiders in which case she might just send Harry to take them down.  But the Council is against Outsiders so it shouldn't be a factor.  Eb mentioned Mab having a known warlock as a Lady (Molly).  Again why would they care?  To me it sounds like they know, or at least think they know Mab has been compromised.  They are worried about her, and doing what they can to neutralize her mortal weapon.

Someone on the Council fears Mab, but what is weird about all of that is why Rashid said, that they are pretty clueless about what he or Winter does for that matter at the Gates.  And it appears he at any rate is happy to keep it that way.  Peabody may not be the only traitor on the Council, nor would I put it past that person to try and get rid of the one who could eventually sniff him or her out.  That would be Harry.

3.  Someone is moving chess pieces around (Odin)?  Maybe it's just story plot, and I'm looking too much into this but here it goes.  Harry was manipulated into being at the peace talks, in my opinion.  He could have been defending himself at the Council but was unable to because of being brought on as security.  So this leads to him being kicked out.

Agreed, there are several that could be working the chess board, not just Odin, there is Uriel, Mab, possibly Titania.

However if Harry had been with the Council, it would have been a disaster for Chicago because the Titan arrived and only Harry was able to lock her away.  It's not only that though.  The Titan had been betrayed by the other Starborn.  If Maggie had been truly killed, Harry probably wouldn't have been able to bind her but he realized she wasn't because Mouse's body wasn't there.  The Titan realized she'd been betrayed which indicates someone wanted Harry to lock her up, but who?  Odin?  Mab? Drakul?

Eb wanted him to go and defend himself at the Council, but he also wanted him on the security team.  I don't see that as a problem so much as who suddenly was so hot to get rid of Harry at them moment?  But all of that might have worked out except HWWB/Justine miscalculated and manipulated Thomas into that assassination attempt.  Which revealed to Harry that Carlos had put that tracking device on him and he really didn't have any friends among the Wardens.  I don't know if Ethinu had really been betrayed, because it was Molly that foresaw that someone would attempt to go after Maggie et all and moved them before Listen got there.  Ethinu may have seen that as betrayal by Listen but it really wasn't, he was just tricked like the Black Riders in Lord of the Rings when Aragorn moved the Hobbits from their beds and put dummies in their place in Bree.

I don't know what it means but it feels like one group (or person) is using Harry for important tasks while another group (or person) is doing what they can to isolate him, make him vulnerable.  Or could it all be the same actor who's doing this?

Harry is seen as a weapon and both sides want to use him as such for their own aims.. Call it a quality of the starborn, but Harry doesn't manipulate very easily, once he figures out "why" he was conceived, he will make a decision as to what side he really is on.

[Basil]

I don't think Carlos betrayed Harry.  It is easy to construct a reasonable scenario where Carlos thought he was HELPING Harry. 

(1)  Carlos knows that Harry can barely control himself in front of the old fuddy-duddies on the Council.
(2)  Carlos knows that Harry is at his best when he can engage in actions in support of the Council.
(3)  Carlos and Harry's other friends devise a multi-pronged strategy to PROVE Harry is innocent of being "captured" by the monsters.  This involves putting a tracker on Harry so that four Wardens can testify that he was just doing normal stuff.  This involves making Harry an important liaison between the Council and the other supernatural nations at this important peace conference.  This involves having Harry's closet friends and peers having a pseudo-intervention with him to make sure that Harry knew how important the vote is and how much pressure is on him (keep in mind, he doesn't understand the McCoy-Harry relationship's depth).   Of course, much of Carlos' plan goes completely wrong.

Finally, when Carlos shows up to tell Harry the news, he's hoarse from shouting.  Carlos defended Harry as much as he could and was shouting with the Council over the vote.  He was Harry's closest friend and so he volunteers to give Harry the bad news.  Again, this goes awry because Harry's is showing off his not quite human nature and he inadvertently threatens Carlos with Molly. 

Indeed, Carlos has flipped on Harry -- but it's not a betrayal, it's much more tragic than that. 

[Mira]

I don't think Carlos betrayed Harry.  It is easy to construct a reasonable scenario where Carlos thought he was HELPING Harry.

You can make that case, or rather perhaps say that Carlos didn't think he was betraying Harry.  However when he secretly put that tracking device on Harry, he was betraying their friendship. At
least from Harry's point of view and so far Carlos hasn't disabused him of that notion.  I also think that someone got to Carlos when he was recovering from his tangle with Molly. 

Finally, when Carlos shows up to tell Harry the news, he's hoarse from shouting.  Carlos defended Harry as much as he could and was shouting with the Council over the vote.  He was Harry's closest friend and so he volunteers to give Harry the bad news.  Again, this goes awry because Harry's is showing off his not quite human nature and he inadvertently threatens Carlos with Molly. 

Yes, he could be hoarse from shouting in defense of Harry, or just hoarse from the aftermath of the Battle of Chicago.  I think it more the latter simply because wizards don't typically shout at one another, especially at a Council meeting.

Indeed, Carlos has flipped on Harry -- but it's not a betrayal, it's much more tragic than that. 

Time will tell, but with his friends all gone Carlos is isolated now, I can see a final showdown between him and Harry..

As far as the Council goes, I just came across something interesting in Battle Ground, if you want quotes it will have to wait, it's late and I need to sleep.  Anyway in a conversation with Mab just after Murphy is killed Mab tells Harry that the only reason the Council has joined the fight against the Titan is they want the Eye of Baylor for themselves.  When everything was over, the Council knew what Harry had done at some point he had the Eye.. Since he never turned it over to them, they figured I am assuming that he turned it over to Winter.. That pissed them off, Carlos told him as much when he told Harry he shouldn't sided with Mab and Winter..  They don't know of course that Harry didn't give it to anyone, it's still stashed on the island.  One wonders though if at some point Mab and/or Lara will try to pressure him into giving it to them.

Also Carlos keeps telling Harry he should have talked to him... About what?  Truth?  "He can't handle the truth..." paraphrasing "A Few Good Men.."

[Snark Knight]

Does the Council know something about Mab that Dresden is clueless about?  Nemfected suspected?  Two people told Harry that a big part of him being kicked out was Mab.  Carlos said it started with Mab, and Eb said that him working with her was a factor. 
I know that Mab isn't a "good person", but to my knowledge she protects reality from Outsiders, ...  But the Council is against Outsiders so it shouldn't be a factor.

I don't think most of the council are aware of either the existence of Nemesis or Winter's role in defending the Gates. Rashid seemed to indicate that isn't shared with even all the other senior councilors unless they need to know, let alone general membership. Most of them just see the "Mab is not a good person" aspect.

[Mira]

I don't think most of the council are aware of either the existence of Nemesis or Winter's role in defending the Gates. Rashid seemed to indicate that isn't shared with even all the other senior councilors unless they need to know, let alone general membership. Most of them just see the "Mab is not a good person" aspect.

Yup, plus if she was telling the truth about the White Council wanting the "Eye" for themselves, one can see them thinking, since they don't know the truth, that Harry was being more loyal to Winter than the Council, and seek to punish him by removing him.   Again, acting out of perception of truth and not the truth, because at this point they could very well believe that since he is Winter Knight, Harry had already turned the Eye over to Mab, which he hasn't.

[Arjan]

Yup, plus if she was telling the truth about the White Council wanting the "Eye" for themselves, one can see them thinking, since they don't know the truth, that Harry was being more loyal to Winter than the Council, and seek to punish him by removing him.   Again, acting out of perception of truth and not the truth, because at this point they could very well believe that since he is Winter Knight, Harry had already turned the Eye over to Mab, which he hasn't.

And Mab did not at any moment suggest he should give the eye to her.

[Mira]

And Mab did not at any moment suggest he should give the eye to her.

No, she didn't, but the White Council doesn't know that and are making assumptions.  Now the next question should be is how does Mab know the Council wants the Eye?

Page 220 Battle Ground

"Fuck the Eye," I said.
She actually lifted her hand to cover her mouth.  But I saw her eyes. . .
smile.  It was damn eerie.  All upon the field want that weapon.
Your own White Council included.  It is the primary reason why they fight."
I blinked.
I looked out at the ruddy haze outside and spat a curse.
Of course.  That's why everyone is fighting beside Mab.  Not to honor the treaty, at least not for
all of them. But to secure a weapon that would give them an enormous advantage over any of the other Accorded nations.  One that could be a threat even to immortals like Mab.  I could imagine what the Senior Council would be saying about it if I accused them, too.  Too dangerous, could cause havoc, can't let those monsters have it, we'll be able to lock it away and keep it safe, harrumph, harrumph.
"Should we be victorious, that will be the real fight, you know," Mab said.  Her gaze, always penetrating, made me squirm.  "Who shall possess the Eye?"

There you have it, including Harry foreseeing being called a "monster" by Carlos.  They kicked him out to pressure him to give them the Eye..  And to your point Arjan, while she didn't ask him to give her the Eye if he is successful, was she hinting that he should give it to her?  It also might account for none of the Council members being at the post battle Accords meeting.  No one knew that Harry has been kicked out, so their assumption might be that he would give it to the Council..

Meanwhile Harry very cleverly played political games with the Eye.. This gives him power and makes him dangerous.. Interesting that I think it was Mab suggested that he use Ethinu himself
since now as his prisoner, he could.  If things get real bad will we see that in the future?  I mean it
is weird that this would be suggested to Harry, unless it is going to happen in the future.  At this point, Harry says he could because she is his prisoner, but it wouldn't be very wise.

[Snark Knight]

Maybe she was right about the Council only fighting for the chance to take the Eye as a prize, maybe not. She's severely misjudged Harry's own motivations before, particularly in the case of mentoring Molly. Could be she's falling into the same trap of reading everyone else as plotting for their own self-interest.

Personally, I think the Council would have been at least as concerned about the blowback from kicking the mortals' beehive extending to them as trying to come up holding the eye in the aftermath. They've got bad institutional (and in a few cases, possibly personal) memories of one Inquisition and the general witch hunting era.

I figure they were operating on a complicated mixed agenda of protecting the innocent, dropping enough bodies with gills to point the retaliation back into the water, and keeping the eye out of any of the worst-case hands, with their own as the preferred option.

[Mira]

  Oh the Council would be very smug about it, as Harry said:

But to secure a weapon that would give them an enormous advantage over any of the other Accorded nations.  One that could be a threat even to immortals like Mab.  I could imagine what the Senior Council would be saying about it if I accused them, too.  Too dangerous, could cause havoc, can't let those monsters have it, we'll be able to lock it away and keep it safe, harrumph, harrumph.

Since the war with the Reds the Council's influence has waned somewhat, the Eye would indeed make them power brokers among the Accord Nations.. So they were after power as much as anyone else, and as Harry said, if he accused them of this they'd fall back on some moral high ground.  It is out in the open now, they consider the other members of the Accords as monsters..

Carlos said it when he talked to Harry after he was kicked out;

"We don't fight monsters fair," he said.  "I learned that from you."

[groinkick]

And Mab did not at any moment suggest he should give the eye to her.

She can't.  As a Sidhe she'd need to offer something of similar value.  I don't know if she has anything like that, or if she did she'd want to trade.  Harry on the other hand could offer it for something in return. 

they consider the other members of the Accords as monsters..

Carlos said it when he talked to Harry after he was kicked out;

Harry already knew that.  It's much more than that.  Carlos was stating that Harry is viewed as a monster, and when he said "we", it meant he was supported that view.

Since the war with the Reds the Council's influence has waned somewhat, the Eye would indeed make them power brokers among the Accord Nations..

I don't think of it that way.  I believe they would use the Eye on someone or something.  Drakul maybe.  I guess they could use it as leverage against anyone who'd threaten the Council, but I think they may have a very specific target.

[Mira]

Harry already knew that.  It's much more than that.  Carlos was stating that Harry is viewed as a monster, and when he said "we", it meant he was supported that view.

Yup, Carlos drank the Kool Aid alright, and to some degree Harry wonders about himself.  This makes me wonder what in the heck Mab is thinking trying to force a marriage between Harry and Lara.  We know how Eb feels about vamps, he might very well try to kill Harry if such a marriage takes place, further isolating the White Council from the Accords, or is that part of the plan?  There certainly is foreshadowing enough in that meeting at the end of Battle Ground. 

I don't think of it that way.  I believe they would use the Eye on someone or something.  Drakul maybe.  I guess they could use it as leverage against anyone who'd threaten the Council, but I think they may have a very specific target.

Yes, but it is misguided thinking, if Harry is right about what powers the Eye, hate and anger, it's not something that can be used safely.   

[Arjan]

She can't.  As a Sidhe she'd need to offer something of similar value.  I don't know if she has anything like that, or if she did she'd want to trade.  Harry on the other hand could offer it for something in return. 

Obvious but it is clear big parts of the white council do not understand this.

[Mira]

Obvious but it is clear big parts of the white council do not understand this.

No, because the majority of them believe he is her monster/knight and that he'd just hand the Eye
over to her without any payment at all.  They don't understand that Harry is building a little arsenal of his own on the island that he is keeping away from everyone.  Interesting don't you think that until he was  ready to use it, he never said a word to anyone about the Spear.

I don't think most of the council are aware of either the existence of Nemesis or Winter's role in defending the Gates. Rashid seemed to indicate that isn't shared with even all the other senior councilors unless they need to know, let alone general membership. Most of them just see the "Mab is not a good person" aspect.

Yeah, well, Carlos keeps saying that Harry should have talked to him... I keep paraphrasing "A Few Good Men,"  "Truth, Carlos nor the Council can handle the truth.."  Which might lead to the ultimate confrontation between Harry and the Council, when he actually tells them the truth.. You might want to extend that to vampires as well, that not all the Courts are alike.  I wouldn't be shocked if most of the Council has the same attitude and prejudices against them as Eb does.

One more thing while we are at it.. Carlos tries to lay a huge guilt trip on Harry, paraphrasing "You should have talked to me, you didn't, and 60,0000 people died.."  Really?  Even if Harry had talked to Carlos, how would that have stopped the invasion of the Fomor and Ethniu? 

[Basil]

I have to admit the Eye theory has some legs.

Marcone may have not wanted the Eye for very good reason.  As an arch-criminal, Marcone knows a thing or two about not holding onto "hot" goods.  Much better for him to know who has it, acquire leverage over that person and retrieve it later.  Marcone may also legitimately question whether he (or Harry) could actually make use of it.  This is not the kind of weapon you could trust with an underling, right?

Regardless of the pretexts that Merlin used, it may well have been the case that he engineered Harry's expulsion to create a scenario where Harry could rejoin the Council and re-obtain his status in exchange for surrendering the Eye to the Council.  Of course, because Harry publicly cast doubt on his possession of the Eye, and no one on the Council attended the meeting where it was discussed (and the transparent ploy was made) it is unlikely that they will know the truth any time soon.  Accordingly, Harry will not be offered the deal to rejoin the Council.  No wonder Mab was so pleased with Harry's gambit. 

Harry, Odin, Mab, Marcone, Lara and the Svartelves are likely 100% certain Harry has the Eye.  However, I'm not sure that the other supers do.  They may believe that the Fomor retrieved it; they may believe it was locked away with Ethniue. 

As an aside, Harry may well be in the top three most powerful mortals on the planet now.  Perhaps even the most powerful.  He has several superweapons including the Shroud, the Eye, the Spear of Destiny; a virtually unassailable fortress, a potential legion of incredibly powerful (evil) servants, is the Winter Knight, can trade blows with the Senior Council and last but not least an incredibly detailed map of the Never-Never that he can use to go almost anywhere he wants.