Resolving the Drakul/Dracula conflicting information

[Griffyn612]

Proposals for satisfactorily resolving the conflicting information that has been presented about Drakul and Dracula.

Please share any additional information I may have forgotten, and we can try to address any concerns.

1) Drakul is a starborn, and also a half-breed (source:Eb), and also something pureblood trapped in human form.
Proposal: Vlad II was a human starborn. One way or another, he was possessed by an immortal being or mantle, which fundamentally changed him into Drakul. He is not truly a half-breed, but is still a combination of human and creature.

2) Dracula joined the Black Court as an act of teenage rebellion, and also founded the Black Court.
Proposal: Vlad III was the son of whatever Vlad II had become, making him a half-breed that hadn't chosen. The strogoi, Romanian vampires, had already existed for millennia, and some were serving Drakul. They did not have an organized structure until Vlad III became one and formed the Black Court, making them into an organization.

[Yuillegan]

So just to share some additional information, as I am not sure whether you have factored it in or not, I'll add a few things.

Drakul apparently has held multiple identities throughout history and had been some of histories more notorious monsters, and some who haven't been particularly well-remembered either. Jim specifically references how it's similar to Vadderung assuming different mortal identities over the centuries/millennia because of issues with humans remembering them.

Drakul also is the stated founder of the Black Court vampire race, but it was Dracula who organised and grew the numbers during the middle ages.

Both of the above statements are paraphrased from Jim's interview with the Dresden Files podcast (ep 77).

1) Drakul is a starborn, and also a half-breed (source:Eb), and also something pureblood trapped in human form.
Proposal: Vlad II was a human starborn. One way or another, he was possessed by an immortal being or mantle, which fundamentally changed him into Drakul. He is not truly a half-breed, but is still a combination of human and creature.

I think I could get behind this if one additional factor is added: the being that possessed Vlad II has done this trick many times, but got trapped in Vlad II's body for reasons as yet unknown.

What do you think the benefit is for an immortal being to possess a starborn? It's almost certainly to do with the Cycle and Outsiders.

2) Dracula joined the Black Court as an act of teenage rebellion, and also founded the Black Court.
Proposal: Vlad III was the son of whatever Vlad II had become, making him a half-breed that hadn't chosen. The strogoi, Romanian vampires, had already existed for millennia, and some were serving Drakul. They did not have an organized structure until Vlad III became one and formed the Black Court, making them into an organization.

I think that ties up nicely with what Jim said in the Dresden Files podcast interview. I also am assuming you mean the Black Court vampires when you say the strigoi?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

What is the benefit of a human body?

For a creature purely of the Never Never it is having a body you dob’t have to conjure from ectoplasm only to have it ripped away each dawn. I wonder if Odin has the same deal, he is now mortal flesh relying upon the immortality of the Kringle Mantle, but he may have done this the slow way, replacing his godly flesh with mortal flesh through mortal sustenance. Harry has been warned of the opposite. We have seen the recruited Winter Fae born, raised and living in the mortal world, their flesh isn’t ectoplasm so presumably they have a lot less to worry about with dawn.

We can therefore posit that Drakul is a being from the Never Never who needed a quick fix, to stay relatively unencumbered in the mortal world and possession was the way forward, and if so why not have the advantages of a Starborn, such as immunity to the influence of Outsiders.

If possession is a quick fix, what necessitated this hasty (from the point of view of immortals) action? Clearly something big enough to worry Drakul, which would be gods, Titans, Dragons, angels, archangels and the White God themself. The White God and his servants try to save the human hosts of denarians, so this additional protection may have been a consideration. There is also a power level consideration - the Queens are about as powerful a being can be in the mortal world without breaking it (and presumably get the negative attention of the White God), entities at higher power levesl like the Mothers, Hades etc stay out of the mortal world, or dip in under restrictions like Ferrovax. The last Titan hid, and when she popped up was laid low by the Knights and a wizard armed and empowered by the White God.

The likelihood I think is that Drakul has been the source of many ‘outcast’ myths and legends, and whilst I doubt that he is Lucifer, he may be an outcast god or several gods such as Mars, Ares, Loki etc, as well as a host of other monsters shunned by mortal man.

[Griffyn612]

Both of the above statements are paraphrased from Jim's interview with the Dresden Files podcast (ep 77).

I hadn't read that yet, so thanks for that. It helps.

I still think the above fits to a degree. Drakul made Blamps/strigoi, and a short time later Dracula became one and went hog wild.

The question is, did Drakul body-hop and eventually get stuck, or did he just possess and get stuck in a starborn in ancient time and he just changed identity for millennia?

I also am assuming you mean the Black Court vampires when you say the strigoi?

Yeah, my guess is that in the Dresdenverse, Drakul toyed around with making Blamps, either from a proto-strigoi creature or a strix.

The likelihood I think is that Drakul has been the source of many ‘outcast’ myths and legends, and whilst I doubt that he is Lucifer, he may be an outcast god or several gods such as Mars, Ares, Loki etc, as well as a host of other monsters shunned by mortal man.

I agree that him being Luci is unlikely, as that would make the power use in Small Favor difficult. Hard to believe he'd help the denarians with that but not associate with them otherwise.

Now I'm going to have to go down the rabbit hole of "who has Drakul been?"

I'm currently getting a Mister Sinister vibe from him. Engineering Blamps, targeting those with powers to enhance them and turn them, obsessed with a particular blood line/type, working secretly from the shadows, hiding his identity. I'd say he's also like Apocalypse, in the raw power way, but not the personality way.

[Griffyn612]

I'm leaning towards the historical ties between Greece and Romania, and the Wallachia region.

• We know Romanian strigoi have a root to the greek strix, which were nocturnal birds that scream and drink blood and hang upside down like bats and could be deterred with garlic.
  
• We know Keres, dark winged female/bird hybrids that were the Greek shepherds of souls that died violent deaths. The Keres were sisters to Thanatos, the Greek god of the peaceful death.
  
• There were Greek rituals, often associated with blood drinking, with Hecate.
  
• We know Hades and the Greeks had Cerberus and other hellhounds that guard hell to prevent spirits from escaping.
  
• We know Thanatos was a lesser death god, who for a time was said to shepherd souls, but was later replaced by Hermes.
  
• Thanatos was said to not like humans or the other gods.
  
• Thanatos was the child of Nyx (Night) and Erebus (Darkness).
  
• We know Drakul created the Black Court, either from scratch or from other species like strigoi and strix.
  
• The Blamps are said to have the full Stoker power set, including being nocturnal, shape shifting, and magics.
  
• We know the Black Court likes to use darkhounds, dogs that have the same dark power of the Blamps.
  
• We know Drakul had a servant for centuries named Hellhound.
  

I'm going to form a loose WAG that Drakul might be Thanatos.

• Let's say an ancient Greek performed a blood ritual for Thanatos, either to stave off death or worship it.
• Either by design or by accident, Thanatos ended up possessing the sacrificer or the sacrifice.
• Thanatos lived in that form for centuries, the embodiment of the undead.
• Over time he made Blamps (and who knows, maybe strix and strigoi as well) in the image of the Keres.
• He made darkhounds in the image of Cerberus and the other hellhounds.
• He sired or found a half-breed (Kincaid) to act as his personal watchdog/Cerberus.
• Kincaid's appearance under Harry's Sight was demonic, but more importantly it was superimposed by the "corpse-spector of death himself". Possibly Mavra hiding behind a veil as we've theorized previously, or possibly an imprint on Kincaid from his time with Drakul, "Death himself".
  
• He doesn't like humans or the other gods, and has motivations against both. Maybe he wants empty night because that's his mom and he has mommy issues. Maybe he wants to remake reality as a limbo between life and death, which he would rule alone. Or maybe he's got no great plan.
  

EDIT: I corrected Thanatos' parentage and added the bit about Kincaid's appearance.

[Avernite]

Vlad II Drakul is also a bad fit for the previous starborn cycle, which has to have been in the early 1300's where Vlad II was a boy in 1395 (counting 1970-666 gives 1304; not sure I remember Harry's birth year, but definitely not right for a boy of 1395).

[groinkick]

My opinion is Drakul is the son of Loki, Fenrir.  The hint to me was when he said "I like this much better" and transformed into a wolf that was taller than Dresden at the shoulders.

Also reading more about him, Fenrir was bound by the other gods (because he was growing too powerful, and it was predicted he'd kill Odin).  Drakul is "something else" trapped in mortal form.  There is a chance that the only way to actually bind his power was to trap him in a mortal form.  Fenrir is also supposed to kill Odin, so it would make sense for him to be in the books.

There is another child of Loki who is The World Snake.  I think it would be cool if The World Snake and Fenrir were one in the same, but don't know if that's the case.  Drakul could be The World Snake as well. 

Loki has three children.  Fenrir, Hel, and Jörmungandr (the world snake).  I'm hoping all three make an appearance but believe Drakul is either Fenrir or Jörmungandr. 

I will add that because Fenrir was born, he in theory could also be a Starborn.   


Dracula (son of Drakul) was also known to change into a wolf.  The son of Fenrir would probably take a similar form as his father.

My belief is that Drakul's goal is to release his father, and brother, and conquer reality. 

[Griffyn612]

Vlad II Drakul is also a bad fit for the previous starborn cycle, which has to have been in the early 1300's where Vlad II was a boy in 1395 (counting 1970-666 gives 1304; not sure I remember Harry's birth year, but definitely not right for a boy of 1395).

Yeah, none of the three Vlads fit the cycle, so something else had to be going on. Based on the Butcher comment in the podcast, it seems likely that Drakul isn't from the last cycle, but instead a previous one.

My opinion is Drakul is the son of Loki, Fenrir.  The hint to me was when he said "I like this much better" and transformed into a wolf that was taller than Dresden at the shoulders.

Also reading more about him, Fenrir was bound by the other gods (because he was growing too powerful, and it was predicted he'd kill Odin).  Drakul is "something else" trapped in mortal form.  There is a chance that the only way to actually bind his power was to trap him in a mortal form.  Fenrir is also supposed to kill Odin, so it would make sense for him to be in the books.

There is another child of Loki who is The World Snake.  I think it would be cool if The World Snake and Fenrir were one in the same, but don't know if that's the case.  Drakul could be The World Snake as well. 

Loki has three children.  Fenrir, Hel, and Jörmungandr (the world snake).  I'm hoping all three make an appearance but believe Drakul is either Fenrir or Jörmungandr. 

I will add that because Fenrir was born, he in theory could also be a Starborn.   


Dracula (son of Drakul) was also known to change into a wolf.  The son of Fenrir would probably take a similar form as his father.

My belief is that Drakul's goal is to release his father, and brother, and conquer reality. 

Turning into a wolf seemed more like typical vampire magic from Stoker, but I suppose it could be a clue. There's just little else to connect the two.

Jormungandr at least has a connection with the dragon/Drakul name, even though that's based on a real world organization. But even then, I'm not sure what other ties there are between Drakul and Jormungandr.

[Yuillegan]

What is the benefit of a human body?

For a creature purely of the Never Never it is having a body you dob’t have to conjure from ectoplasm only to have it ripped away each dawn. I wonder if Odin has the same deal, he is now mortal flesh relying upon the immortality of the Kringle Mantle, but he may have done this the slow way, replacing his godly flesh with mortal flesh through mortal sustenance. Harry has been warned of the opposite. We have seen the recruited Winter Fae born, raised and living in the mortal world, their flesh isn’t ectoplasm so presumably they have a lot less to worry about with dawn.

We can therefore posit that Drakul is a being from the Never Never who needed a quick fix, to stay relatively unencumbered in the mortal world and possession was the way forward, and if so why not have the advantages of a Starborn, such as immunity to the influence of Outsiders.

If possession is a quick fix, what necessitated this hasty (from the point of view of immortals) action? Clearly something big enough to worry Drakul, which would be gods, Titans, Dragons, angels, archangels and the White God themself. The White God and his servants try to save the human hosts of denarians, so this additional protection may have been a consideration. There is also a power level consideration - the Queens are about as powerful a being can be in the mortal world without breaking it (and presumably get the negative attention of the White God), entities at higher power levesl like the Mothers, Hades etc stay out of the mortal world, or dip in under restrictions like Ferrovax. The last Titan hid, and when she popped up was laid low by the Knights and a wizard armed and empowered by the White God.

The likelihood I think is that Drakul has been the source of many ‘outcast’ myths and legends, and whilst I doubt that he is Lucifer, he may be an outcast god or several gods such as Mars, Ares, Loki etc, as well as a host of other monsters shunned by mortal man.

It all depends on how it was done, I think.

Jim said that when Athena popped out of Zeus' head, he created a body for her to be in. Harry couldn't do that for Bonnea in the same way so they had to use Bob's back-up skull.

So did Drakul create a body, or possess one, or is it the combination of a starborn ascending and that being taking shape? The answer is very important I think.

You're onto something with the ectoplasm versus real body. I believe that's part of how beings like Vadderung and Drakul can affect the universe in a big way, that non-mortals can't. I don't know if they get free will when going mortal...but I wouldn't be surprised if their will becomes "freer". I also suspect it require less energy from them to maintain a mortal body than an ectoplasm one and it can't be cut-off or banished as easily as an ectoplasm body. Uriel, Ethniu and others don't use ectoplasm bodies though, so it does make you wonder if their bodies are those spirit+flesh bodies mentioned and never talked about again in Fool Moon. If so, why doesn't Drakul do that?

Seem it could be he was looking for protection from the other powers by hiding in a mortal body. But I think it's more likely it offers an advantage that an immortal body doesn't. Mab hinted this when she told Dresden immortality is no substitute for intelligence. Ethniu hints at this when she muses why Vadderung is so mortal now...and suggests it's because he thinks he is deep in the "game".

I hadn't read that yet, so thanks for that. It helps.

I still think the above fits to a degree. Drakul made Blamps/strigoi, and a short time later Dracula became one and went hog wild.

The question is, did Drakul body-hop and eventually get stuck, or did he just possess and get stuck in a starborn in ancient time and he just changed identity for millennia?

Yeah, my guess is that in the Dresdenverse, Drakul toyed around with making Blamps, either from a proto-strigoi creature or a strix.

I agree that him being Luci is unlikely, as that would make the power use in Small Favor difficult. Hard to believe he'd help the denarians with that but not associate with them otherwise.

Now I'm going to have to go down the rabbit hole of "who has Drakul been?"

I'm currently getting a Mister Sinister vibe from him. Engineering Blamps, targeting those with powers to enhance them and turn them, obsessed with a particular blood line/type, working secretly from the shadows, hiding his identity. I'd say he's also like Apocalypse, in the raw power way, but not the personality way.

All good, it was fairly recent information.

Yes, I think that's the salient point. Has Drakul been body-hopping or did he get stuck early on in human history, maybe in his first body, and holding various personas over time in the one body? I think there isn't enough information as yet to make a clear decision. There is merit in both ideas. My gut feeling is that he got trapped in his original starborn body back in the day - somehow that just feels right. Which makes it all the more impressive he is still running around. 

Black Court simply struck me as the original condition and other vampires were simply other variants. But I am less leaning to Drakul being the sole creator of all the vampires and rather just the father of the Black Court. While there are connections, he doesn't display obvious Red Court and White Court tendencies or characteristics (excluding the Willpower attack - but I think that's another thing...). I do think though that he offered a worthy opponent a long time ago what Drakul described as "the dark gift of immortality" in exchange for servitude. That's how he started the Black Court, I think.

Yeah, I don't think he's Luci. It would both be too obvious and not make sense for all the reasons you stated and more. The Demon Lord theory now seems the most likely.

The Apocalypse reference is a good one. It makes a fair bit of sense. I can see Vadderung as a Prof X type and perhaps Nicodemus or Marcone as a Magneto type, working together to defeat him. Certainly a vibe.

It would be good to try and make a list of candidates for possible personas that Drakul has held. I will think on it.

[Griffyn612]

It all depends on how it was done, I think.

Jim said that when Athena popped out of Zeus' head, he created a body for her to be in. Harry couldn't do that for Bonnea in the same way so they had to use Bob's back-up skull.

So did Drakul create a body, or possess one, or is it the combination of a starborn ascending and that being taking shape? The answer is very important I think.

You're onto something with the ectoplasm versus real body. I believe that's part of how beings like Vadderung and Drakul can affect the universe in a big way, that non-mortals can't. I don't know if they get free will when going mortal...but I wouldn't be surprised if their will becomes "freer". I also suspect it require less energy from them to maintain a mortal body than an ectoplasm one and it can't be cut-off or banished as easily as an ectoplasm body. Uriel, Ethniu and others don't use ectoplasm bodies though, so it does make you wonder if their bodies are those spirit+flesh bodies mentioned and never talked about again in Fool Moon. If so, why doesn't Drakul do that?

Seem it could be he was looking for protection from the other powers by hiding in a mortal body. But I think it's more likely it offers an advantage that an immortal body doesn't. Mab hinted this when she told Dresden immortality is no substitute for intelligence. Ethniu hints at this when she muses why Vadderung is so mortal now...and suggests it's because he thinks he is deep in the "game".
All good, it was fairly recent information.

Yes, I think that's the salient point. Has Drakul been body-hopping or did he get stuck early on in human history, maybe in his first body, and holding various personas over time in the one body? I think there isn't enough information as yet to make a clear decision. There is merit in both ideas. My gut feeling is that he got trapped in his original starborn body back in the day - somehow that just feels right. Which makes it all the more impressive he is still running around. 

Black Court simply struck me as the original condition and other vampires were simply other variants. But I am less leaning to Drakul being the sole creator of all the vampires and rather just the father of the Black Court. While there are connections, he doesn't display obvious Red Court and White Court tendencies or characteristics (excluding the Willpower attack - but I think that's another thing...). I do think though that he offered a worthy opponent a long time ago what Drakul described as "the dark gift of immortality" in exchange for servitude. That's how he started the Black Court, I think.

Yeah, I don't think he's Luci. It would both be too obvious and not make sense for all the reasons you stated and more. The Demon Lord theory now seems the most likely.

The Apocalypse reference is a good one. It makes a fair bit of sense. I can see Vadderung as a Prof X type and perhaps Nicodemus or Marcone as a Magneto type, working together to defeat him. Certainly a vibe.

It would be good to try and make a list of candidates for possible personas that Drakul has held. I will think on it.

Now that his age is indefinite, it's all but impossible to pin down any facts.

I like the idea of the strix being a Greek-gods cursed human family that resulted in blood-drinking bird creatures, and for some reason a branch helped found the strigoi, like the magical equivalent of evolution. Then later, Drakul experimented to make a new breed that is the Blamp.

I think that would allow for different courts to evolve from their own regions and origins around the globe. Since blood drinking was fairly common back in the day, I could easily see each having a similar but different path.

Blood sacrifice to gods could have started it all over the place, or familial curses, or demonic possession... So many options, so little guidance.

[Basil]

My own pet theory is that the White Court originated with a human wizard that "cut a deal" in a bid for immortality.  The White Court's official language is Etruscan and I suspect that makes dates them to not much later than 500BC or there about.  (Emperor Claudius was allegedly the last person in the real world who could speak and read Etruscan).  I don't think the deal quite went the way it was expected to (i.e., completely as expected for the readers) and that wizard couldn't really use his magical gift properly thereafter.

The creation of the first Black Court vampires could have been an attempt to "improve" upon that arrangement --  also an experiment that didn't go quite right. 

In short, I believe that the Reds came first, then the Whites and then finally the Black.

P.S. It's a theme in Western literature all the way back to the Epic of Gilgamesh (yes, I include the Sumerians as part of the West) that mortal attempts to achieve immortality all go awry. 

[Yuillegan]

Now that his age is indefinite, it's all but impossible to pin down any facts.

I like the idea of the strix being a Greek-gods cursed human family that resulted in blood-drinking bird creatures, and for some reason a branch helped found the strigoi, like the magical equivalent of evolution. Then later, Drakul experimented to make a new breed that is the Blamp.

I think that would allow for different courts to evolve from their own regions and origins around the globe. Since blood drinking was fairly common back in the day, I could easily see each having a similar but different path.

Blood sacrifice to gods could have started it all over the place, or familial curses, or demonic possession... So many options, so little guidance.

I totally missed your Thanatos theory. I quite like it, it certainly has some interesting ideas. It could be though that Thanatos is just another of this being's many identities too, but that's harder to guess.

Maybe Drakul cursed the original family that became Strix, and then modified it a bit to create Blamps. What's strange is that he seemingly stopped modifying Blamps. Why not improve them further, remove some or all of their weaknesses (if possible)? Or maybe the other bloodlines of vampires are the other modifications, but he has stuck with his original type. Or perhaps he just can't modify them further?

We definitely need a bit more information. I still think the vampires are strongly connected to the Outsiders, somehow. I don't quite get it altogether but there is some weird connection.

My own pet theory is that the White Court originated with a human wizard that "cut a deal" in a bid for immortality.  The White Court's official language is Etruscan and I suspect that makes dates them to not much later than 500BC or there about.  (Emperor Claudius was allegedly the last person in the real world who could speak and read Etruscan).  I don't think the deal quite went the way it was expected to (i.e., completely as expected for the readers) and that wizard couldn't really use his magical gift properly thereafter.

The creation of the first Black Court vampires could have been an attempt to "improve" upon that arrangement --  also an experiment that didn't go quite right. 

In short, I believe that the Reds came first, then the Whites and then finally the Black.

P.S. It's a theme in Western literature all the way back to the Epic of Gilgamesh (yes, I include the Sumerians as part of the West) that mortal attempts to achieve immortality all go awry. 

Except apparently the Black Court have been around since the dawn of humankind. According to several sources. The Reds are a little bit after the early days of human civilization (which is well after the dawn of human kind), and the White Court are even younger again. I'd say Jade are probably as old as the Red Court, but maybe older. But I think the Black Court vampires themselves were the original type and the actual Black Court of Vampires only started after Vlad the Impaler organised them.