Did Rashid kick Harry out of the White Council with an ulterior motive?

[Yuillegan]

I believe it's possible that Rashid didn't simply vote Harry out because of whatever the stated reasons were i.e. Harry going rogue and being dangerous etc.

I think he might have been doing it so that Harry and the White Council will become more adversarial and set things in motion for the White Council to fall.

I am not sure why the Gatekeeper wants/expects this. I doubt it's for the same reasons as Cowl though, at least not entirely. Maybe it is a Dr Strange type deal, the White Council must fall so that the planet can be saved.

[Mira]

I believe it's possible that Rashid didn't simply vote Harry out because of whatever the stated reasons were i.e. Harry going rogue and being dangerous etc.

I think he might have been doing it so that Harry and the White Council will become more adversarial and set things in motion for the White Council to fall.

I am not sure why the Gatekeeper wants/expects this. I doubt it's for the same reasons as Cowl though, at least not entirely. Maybe it is a Dr Strange type deal, the White Council must fall so that the planet can be saved.

I doubt he voted at all, because unless the danger at the Gates was completely passed I doubt he'd leave them.  Also it would be uncharacteristic I think for him to go ahead and vote with two of the members indisposed, especially two Harry allies.

[Monkez]

I doubt he voted at all, because unless the danger at the Gates was completely passed I doubt he'd leave them.  Also it would be uncharacteristic I think for him to go ahead and vote with two of the members indisposed, especially two Harry allies.

This! 

[groinkick]

I believe he was at the Outer Gates.

I think the big question is who ratted out Dresden using lethal magic against the Turtle Necks?  It happened very quickly, and an immediate vote was held.  Eb was still in surgery which makes me believe Harry being voted out happened pretty darn fast. 

My opinion is Carlos has been fed information about Dresden.  Information he didn't want to believe but came to believe when he observed Harry.  Someone put it in his head that he cannot trust Dresden.  Nemesis?  Perhaps but I suspect it's a wizard on the Council who has befriended Carlos to act as a spy.  Cowl perhaps?  Kumori?  Langtry?  The person doesn't have to be a villain but could be.  Lucio as head of the Wardens would be the perfect person for Nemesis to target, and she could have manipulated Carlos. 

[seanham]

It could be that no one actually witnessed Harry violating the Laws of Magic that was just used as a pretense to kick Harry out because the Council could no longer control him. Or that the Black Council/another faction wanted Harry out of the Council.

[Yuillegan]

I doubt he voted at all, because unless the danger at the Gates was completely passed I doubt he'd leave them.  Also it would be uncharacteristic I think for him to go ahead and vote with two of the members indisposed, especially two Harry allies.

While that's possible, I don't think that is what happened.

The White Council voted in emergency session after the events of the Battle, while McCoy and LtW were in surgery. This suggests they had all returned to Edinburgh (those that survived).

We can safely assume the Merlin and Ancient Mai were there. If Christos survived the battle he was there and he wasn't listed as being in surgery. I would also assume Martha Liberty was there because most of the others who were at Chicago had returned. So I think it's reasonable to assume the Gatekeeper had returned as well.

If we don't assume those others had returned we know how protocol goes. The Merlin holds all their votes by-proxy and the only other person would have been Ancient Mai...who is hardly likely to have voted to keep Harry in (especially based on her previous voting habits on the exact same issues).

I believe he was at the Outer Gates.

I think the big question is who ratted out Dresden using lethal magic against the Turtle Necks?  It happened very quickly, and an immediate vote was held.  Eb was still in surgery which makes me believe Harry being voted out happened pretty darn fast. 

My opinion is Carlos has been fed information about Dresden.  Information he didn't want to believe but came to believe when he observed Harry.  Someone put it in his head that he cannot trust Dresden.  Nemesis?  Perhaps but I suspect it's a wizard on the Council who has befriended Carlos to act as a spy.  Cowl perhaps?  Kumori?  Langtry?  The person doesn't have to be a villain but could be.  Lucio as head of the Wardens would be the perfect person for Nemesis to target, and she could have manipulated Carlos. 

Well even if it wasn't Carlos, there are others who could have been aware of it. Martha Liberty was monitoring events and running communications from the BFS headquarters. Rashid could also have viewed it remotely, perhaps even in the past considering his abilities. Hell, even Mai and Langtry could have seen it remotely via scrying or something similar. Remote viewing isn't that uncommon amongst wizards. So there are several wizards who weren't there who could have noticed Harry's magic.

[Mira]

  Unless all the danger had passed at the Gates, and I don't remember it being said that it was, just because things had quieted down in Chicago.  For that reason alone, I see Rashid skipping the meeting, he skips a lot.. Also of all the Senior Council members, including Langtry, Rashid knows what Harry is thinking and what kind of a job he is expected to do.  If he did vote against Harry, it wouldn't be for the reasons Carlos gave, in fact as in Summer Knight, instead of voting Harry out, Rashid would have just killed him.

[morriswalters]

It was fairly obvious since the duology was published that Harry was toast with the Council.  And the fight with the turtlenecks wasn't a secret. Marcone was best positioned to put Harry between a rock and a hard place for that. Headquarters was at his house.

Carlos got his got his feelings hurt by Molly and Harry rode him about it at least twice. So he was waiting for a little payback. So a whisper from Johnny, and Harry's support from Scotland is gone. Or Marcone simply dialed in to Wizard Central and did the deed himself.

[Mira]

It was fairly obvious since the duology was published that Harry was toast with the Council.  And the fight with the turtlenecks wasn't a secret. Marcone was best positioned to put Harry between a rock and a hard place for that. Headquarters was at his house.

Carlos got his got his feelings hurt by Molly and Harry rode him about it at least twice. So he was waiting for a little payback. So a whisper from Johnny, and Harry's support from Scotland is gone. Or Marcone simply dialed in to Wizard Central and did the deed himself.

Did Harry ride Carlos after he got crippled trying to bang her?  Before maybe, but that is just a guy thing.

[CrusherJen]

If I'm remembering correctly, Harry doesn't know what happened between Molly and Carlos at all. I think he made a couple of innocent references to her in front of Carlos (don't have the books handy to confirm), but of course, Carlos took them in a different way than Harry intended... it didn't help them get along any better.

[morriswalters]

If I'm remembering correctly, Harry doesn't know what happened between Molly and Carlos at all. I think he made a couple of innocent references to her in front of Carlos (don't have the books handy to confirm), but of course, Carlos took them in a different way than Harry intended... it didn't help them get along any better.

I don't know, it's open to interpretation.

Did Harry ride Carlos after he got crippled trying to bang her?  Before maybe, but that is just a guy thing.

Tht doesn't make it hurt any less.

[vincentric]

If I'm remembering correctly, Harry doesn't know what happened between Molly and Carlos at all. I think he made a couple of innocent references to her in front of Carlos (don't have the books handy to confirm), but of course, Carlos took them in a different way than Harry intended... it didn't help them get along any better.

That's exactly what has happened. Harry has no idea that it was Molly that crippled Carlos and Carlos just assumes that he knows all about it. It happened while Harry was stuck on the island incommunicado after Cold Days.

Carlos also has no idea that Molly was so ignorant and inexperienced with her mantle that it basically overrode her control. Harry has trouble controlling the Winter Knight mantle and he's older and more experienced than Molly who's had little to no sexual experience. She was a virgin when she became his apprentice and the only possible hint of any change in that status in the books was her potential date with Graver in Turncoat. The Winter Lady mantle overwhelmed her and then proceeded to stop Carlos from completing the act violently. Plus by word of Lara, Carlos is still a virgin or nearly so. In context, that encounter with Molly might be the most traumatic incidence in his life. And Harry used Molly as a threat in general without knowing how much more personal that is to Carlos.

[Yuillegan]

  Unless all the danger had passed at the Gates, and I don't remember it being said that it was, just because things had quieted down in Chicago.  For that reason alone, I see Rashid skipping the meeting, he skips a lot.. Also of all the Senior Council members, including Langtry, Rashid knows what Harry is thinking and what kind of a job he is expected to do.  If he did vote against Harry, it wouldn't be for the reasons Carlos gave, in fact as in Summer Knight, instead of voting Harry out, Rashid would have just killed him.

As I say, it is possible he wasn't in attendance. We will have to wait and see to find out the truth of course. We don't have any information either way at this stage (and are unlikely to get more for a while...).

I will say though, the attack on the Gates in Cold Days subsided after Harry stopped He Who Walks Before and Maeve/Nemesis. Rashid then had time to reinstate Harry as a warden and a citizen of the USA. So based similar events in the series, it would appear the attacks to quieten after the big fight is done and Rashid does appear to contact the Council (if not actually visit Edinburgh).

As for Summer Knight, Rashid was going to kill Harry not because Harry would be kicked out of the Council, but because should Harry be stripped of the protections of the White Council, the onus was on the Council to overturn a fugitive murderer to the Red Court as stipulated by the Accords. Had Harry failed the Trial that the Gatekeeper had set, he would be a dead man walking and so the Gatekeeper felt it better to kill him personally rather than have the Red Court do it. And though it wasn't stated, probably because he also didn't want the Red Court to turn a starborn to their cause - perhaps even make him a Red Court vampire.

[Mira]

As for Summer Knight, Rashid was going to kill Harry not because Harry would be kicked out of the Council, but because should Harry be stripped of the protections of the White Council, the onus was on the Council to overturn a fugitive murderer to the Red Court as stipulated by the Accords. Had Harry failed the Trial that the Gatekeeper had set, he would be a dead man walking and so the Gatekeeper felt it better to kill him personally rather than have the Red Court do it. And though it wasn't stated, probably because he also didn't want the Red C

Your impression is different from mine, my take since the Senior Council wanted Harry to be demoted to apprentice again, which Rashid mostly abstained from judging one way or the other
had his own standards of judgement as to whether Harry was more warlock than wizard.

I will say though, the attack on the Gates in Cold Days subsided after Harry stopped He Who Walks Before and Maeve/Nemesis. Rashid then had time to reinstate Harry as a warden and a citizen of the USA. So based similar events in the series, it would appear the attacks to quieten after the big fight is done and Rashid does appear to contact the Council (if not actually visit Edinburgh).

Again your impression is different from mine, the impression I got from Battle Ground was the attack upon the Gates was much more serious than it was in Cold Days.  Also I find it hard to believe that if Rashid was willing to go through all the trouble he did in Cold Days to reestablish Harry as alive etc., that he'd vote to have him executed or expelled from the Council over the killing of Turtlenecks with magic during the Battle of Chicago.  Especially in the light that it wouldn't be surprising if, Christos, LtW, and Eb were possibly guilty of the same thing in the heat of battle. And last but not least, more than anyone Rashid has a handle on what Harry's job as Winter Knight and Warden of Demonreach has been.  Unless of course he thinks it is better for Harry to work outside of the Council now.  Which he may, if he does we will hear his reasoning.  It is also odd that Rashid hasn't talked to Harry before any of this went down or after, because he always has in the past.  That says something about how dire conditions at the Gates must be.

[BrainFireBob]

As I say, it is possible he wasn't in attendance. We will have to wait and see to find out the truth of course. We don't have any information either way at this stage (and are unlikely to get more for a while...).

I will say though, the attack on the Gates in Cold Days subsided after Harry stopped He Who Walks Before and Maeve/Nemesis. Rashid then had time to reinstate Harry as a warden and a citizen of the USA. So based similar events in the series, it would appear the attacks to quieten after the big fight is done and Rashid does appear to contact the Council (if not actually visit Edinburgh).

As for Summer Knight, Rashid was going to kill Harry not because Harry would be kicked out of the Council, but because should Harry be stripped of the protections of the White Council, the onus was on the Council to overturn a fugitive murderer to the Red Court as stipulated by the Accords. Had Harry failed the Trial that the Gatekeeper had set, he would be a dead man walking and so the Gatekeeper felt it better to kill him personally rather than have the Red Court do it. And though it wasn't stated, probably because he also didn't want the Red Court to turn a starborn to their cause - perhaps even make him a Red Court vampire.

Rashid wasn't injured then.

I took it as unanimous because Merlin had proxy votes, Rashid was occupied, and Martha Liberty flipped on seeing that Harry commands the loyalty of the previously unaligned Wyldfae Little Folk.