Author Topic: Are We Wrong about Christos?  (Read 2933 times)

Offline Basil

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Are We Wrong about Christos?
« on: June 28, 2021, 06:54:14 PM »
Dresden is a fallible narrator.  While I don't think that Jim set up the Dresdenverse to be a huge exploration of this artistic device (not like the movie Barry Lyndon or something like that),  Jim has mentioned the problem of the fallible narrator in streams, interviews and WoJs.   

In the aftermath of Battleground and Peace Talks, I've been questioning my assumptions about Christos. We are very much led to assume the worst of Christos by Harry:

*Christos strong-armed his way onto the Senior Council in the wake of LaFortier's murder.  Threatening the Merlin with succession of his non-Western faction. 
*Christos is disliked by McCoy for being "unpleasant," and the circumstances make McCoy and Dresden suspect that Christos is Black Council. 
*In his first "action" as a Senior Council member that we see, he flips out on Dresden as he is treating with Arianna in an attempt to end the Red War.  This, of course, reinforces our perception of Christos.

But, is this really fair? 

First, with Peabody in his position, why would the Black Council actually need anyone on the Senior Council? Peabody was controlling the Council fairly effectively without actually needing a vote.  He already had access to all the information that the Black Council could have needed. 

The Black Council goal appears to have been broadly to set factions of the Council against each other.  Would it be better to put a Black Council traitor on the Senior Council or a powerful and effective member of a disgruntled faction on the Senior Council? 

Second, the fact that McCoy doesn't like Christos is hardly evidence of anything.  McCoy doesn't like anyone much IMHO and "unpleasant" is quite the stone for McCoy's glass house.  McCoy and Dresden are brawlers.  Neither are going to be inclined to like politicos, even though to be fair Christos is legit as a combatant. 

Third, he is an arrogant and pompous blowhard over impressed with his own diplomatic skills.  See Wizard, Senior.  The incident with Arianna ... well, Dresden was half-insane and out of line as everyone but Dresden saw.  Lucio, Molly, Ramirez and even the Merlin tried to calm him down. 

Fourth, as detailed in another thread.  I find it suspicious that Christos was sent to Chicago while neither Merlin nor Mai attended the talks.  Sure, Mai is not handy in a fight.  But Liberty doesn't seem to be either.  While Christos and LTW and McCoy are good in a scrap, so is Merlin.  In short, Merlin sent everyone who might support Dresden into the fire (except Rashid who had other things to do) and kept his supporters and Dresden's sure opponents safe in Scotland behind the wards. 


Offline vincentric

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Re: Are We Wrong about Christos?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2021, 09:33:02 PM »
Points 1-3 are pretty valid. Christos is not getting the benefit of doubt but this is colored by Harry's narrative more than any actual action.

I think you are leaping to conclusions about the Merlin on point 4. Yes, he stacked the deck on the vote to expel Harry. But Christos being sent to the peace conference is more likely the Merlin giving him a chance to do some diplomatic good or to embarrass himself before half the Senior Council and the Accorded Nations. Either way the Merlin comes out ahead.

No one who was sent to the peace conference was sent there to battle Ethniu and the Formor army though. Unless you think the Merlin was involved with the Formor, I hardly think he could have anticipated the attack when it took Mab, Vadderung, Titania, Ferrovax and Marcone/Namshiel by total surprise.

Offline forumghost

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Re: Are We Wrong about Christos?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2021, 10:02:18 PM »
I mean I'm not sure everyone else was surprised by the Fomor being backstabbing assholes so much as they were surprised that they showed up with a God wielding a Nuke in their roster.

As Lea said, being traitorous assholes is what they are.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Are We Wrong about Christos?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2021, 03:59:56 AM »
Dresden is a fallible narrator.  While I don't think that Jim set up the Dresdenverse to be a huge exploration of this artistic device (not like the movie Barry Lyndon or something like that),  Jim has mentioned the problem of the fallible narrator in streams, interviews and WoJs.   

In the aftermath of Battleground and Peace Talks, I've been questioning my assumptions about Christos. We are very much led to assume the worst of Christos by Harry:

*Christos strong-armed his way onto the Senior Council in the wake of LaFortier's murder.  Threatening the Merlin with succession of his non-Western faction. 
*Christos is disliked by McCoy for being "unpleasant," and the circumstances make McCoy and Dresden suspect that Christos is Black Council. 
*In his first "action" as a Senior Council member that we see, he flips out on Dresden as he is treating with Arianna in an attempt to end the Red War.  This, of course, reinforces our perception of Christos.

But, is this really fair? 

First, with Peabody in his position, why would the Black Council actually need anyone on the Senior Council? Peabody was controlling the Council fairly effectively without actually needing a vote.  He already had access to all the information that the Black Council could have needed. 

The Black Council goal appears to have been broadly to set factions of the Council against each other.  Would it be better to put a Black Council traitor on the Senior Council or a powerful and effective member of a disgruntled faction on the Senior Council? 

Second, the fact that McCoy doesn't like Christos is hardly evidence of anything.  McCoy doesn't like anyone much IMHO and "unpleasant" is quite the stone for McCoy's glass house.  McCoy and Dresden are brawlers.  Neither are going to be inclined to like politicos, even though to be fair Christos is legit as a combatant. 

Third, he is an arrogant and pompous blowhard over impressed with his own diplomatic skills.  See Wizard, Senior.  The incident with Arianna ... well, Dresden was half-insane and out of line as everyone but Dresden saw.  Lucio, Molly, Ramirez and even the Merlin tried to calm him down. 

Fourth, as detailed in another thread.  I find it suspicious that Christos was sent to Chicago while neither Merlin nor Mai attended the talks.  Sure, Mai is not handy in a fight.  But Liberty doesn't seem to be either.  While Christos and LTW and McCoy are good in a scrap, so is Merlin.  In short, Merlin sent everyone who might support Dresden into the fire (except Rashid who had other things to do) and kept his supporters and Dresden's sure opponents safe in Scotland behind the wards.
Yes, Cristos the sincere idealist at cross-purposes with Harry and trying to watch out for his own flock feels more appropriate than Cristos the one note bad guy who keeps getting shown to be a fool.
I mean I'm not sure everyone else was surprised by the Fomor being backstabbing assholes so much as they were surprised that they showed up with a God wielding a Nuke in their roster.

As Lea said, being traitorous assholes is what they are.
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Offline Basil

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Re: Are We Wrong about Christos?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2021, 05:04:52 AM »
Points 1-3 are pretty valid. Christos is not getting the benefit of doubt but this is colored by Harry's narrative more than any actual action.

I think you are leaping to conclusions about the Merlin on point 4. Yes, he stacked the deck on the vote to expel Harry. But Christos being sent to the peace conference is more likely the Merlin giving him a chance to do some diplomatic good or to embarrass himself before half the Senior Council and the Accorded Nations. Either way the Merlin comes out ahead.

No one who was sent to the peace conference was sent there to battle Ethniu and the Formor army though. Unless you think the Merlin was involved with the Formor, I hardly think he could have anticipated the attack when it took Mab, Vadderung, Titania, Ferrovax and Marcone/Namshiel by total surprise.

Merlin opposes Christos, at least due to the strong-arming when Langtry hoped to have another loyalist installed.  However, I doubt that Merlin wants Christos out their embarrassing himself and the White Council as a result. 

I guess, I'm trying to attack this problem from the other direction.  Why would Christos be a (secret) Harry supporter?  Best I can come up with is that Harry did Christos' faction a big solid when he destroyed the Red Court all at once, the Red Court was big in the same areas where Christos' faction is based. 


Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Are We Wrong about Christos?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2021, 02:17:37 PM »
Christos is all about face. If Harry is popular with younger wizards still, Christos could seize on that, especially if his entire political stance is "anti-establishment/willing to argue with the Merlin."

Like the American Republicans and Democrats- axiomatic oppositional grandstanding.

There's two variants on the OP's question.

1) What if Christos is a "Secret good guy/team Harry." I don't personally think so, generally, because I think that will be Nic during the apocalypse and such devices can become over-used. Not a strong reason, but my reason.
2) What if Christos is a dupe? This one *feels* Dresden to me- as Ebenezer says, "Stupid's worse." So he'll bombastically interfere and try to take over.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Are We Wrong about Christos?
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2021, 09:23:31 PM »
Of course Christos was last seen flying and on fire, so how much does it matter?

He should by rights be dead.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Are We Wrong about Christos?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2021, 11:14:50 PM »
Maybe the Merlin was hoping with Harry there that some stuff would happen and alot of his problem people would be removed.
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Offline Basil

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Re: Are We Wrong about Christos?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2021, 10:21:54 PM »
Maybe the Merlin was hoping with Harry there that some stuff would happen and alot of his problem people would be removed.

Could be, but super powerful wizards don't grow on trees.  It takes them centuries to fully develop.  I'd be more inclined towards the "get them out of the way" than the "get them killed" theory.