What if Nicodemus is really with Nemesis (also the WC)?

[groinkick]

With the attack on Arctis Tor the assumption was that Thorned is working for Nemesis, and that Nicodemus is not...  What if it's the opposite?  What if Thorned and his allies actually attacked Arctis Tor because Leah was a danger to all of reality.  I think of this because Jim said that "Mab thought she was doing the right thing"...  he did appear to put an emphasis on "thought"...  So what if Mab was screwing up, and those that attacked were trying to actually stop Nemesis?

Perhaps this is where things get turned on their heads.  Nicodemus is the Enemy of reality while Thorned and who he's with is not.  Maybe when Cowl was speaking of the White Council being rotten to the core, this is what he spoke of?  Freaking A this could mean that Harry has been wrong the entire time..  The Black Council are the good guys, the White Council is corrupted, and we have all been duped. Cowl couldn't outright tell Harry because nothing, not even Angels know if someone is Nemfected. 

[legendarycreamer]

Then why would cowl give leah the infested athame?

[BrainFireBob]

With the attack on Arctis Tor the assumption was that Thorned is working for Nemesis, and that Nicodemus is not...  What if it's the opposite?  What if Thorned and his allies actually attacked Arctis Tor because Leah was a danger to all of reality.  I think of this because Jim said that "Mab thought she was doing the right thing"...  he did appear to put an emphasis on "thought"...  So what if Mab was screwing up, and those that attacked were trying to actually stop Nemesis?

Perhaps this is where things get turned on their heads.  Nicodemus is the Enemy of reality while Thorned and who he's with is not.  Maybe when Cowl was speaking of the White Council being rotten to the core, this is what he spoke of?  Freaking A this could mean that Harry has been wrong the entire time..  The Black Council are the good guys, the White Council is corrupted, and we have all been duped. Cowl couldn't outright tell Harry because nothing, not even Angels know if someone is Nemfected.

From a story perspective, I don't think this would be as interesting as what is going on.

At the beginning of the series when they first encounter each other, the cards are all in Nic's hands. As time has passed, Nic has been falling as Harry is in ascent, and they are becoming foils/dark mirrors (Harry gains feal servants as Nic loses his, Harry is the positive, protective father while Nic is . .gross, Nic is the bogeyman everyone fears as unkillable- who has almost been killed by Harry, etc.). The conflict between the two of them has become a personal one. From a classic story construction standpoint; the expected end of such an arc is some combination of "Harry and Nic must team up and put aside their personal rivalry" and "Nic was the one fighting Nemesis the entire time."

I have been meaning to look at the dates, but given that magic is generated by living things/life, I've wondered if the Black Death/Nic's attempted Plague was to reduce "ambient" magic and therefore make it harder to summon Outsiders, etc. Things like that- a scorched earth policy but with an eye to protecting reality. Anduriel's ability to listen to shadows is superior to Ivy's ability when it would come to tracking Nemesis, one would think.

[Basil]

According to Nicodemus, he is trying to save the world. 

Doesn't seem like an Outsider sentiment, regardless of what one thinks Nicodemus means by saving.  The Outsiders want to undo Creation.  Nicodemus probably seeks to preserve Creation -- under new management, of course. 

[Arjan]

According to Nicodemus, he is trying to save the world. 

Lying comes natural for him.

Doesn't seem like an Outsider sentiment, regardless of what one thinks Nicodemus means by saving.  The Outsiders want to undo Creation.  Nicodemus probably seeks to preserve Creation -- under new management, of course.

What he wants is not that important. It’s about Anduriel.

[Basil]

Yes, he's a lying liar, but I don't think he's lying about this.  Think about it this way, Lucifer wants to overthrow God and take his place -- he doesn't want to undo Creation. 

[Arjan]

If you ask Uriel what is at stake and why he does what he does he says souls, free will. It is not that different with the fallen, it is about souls and free will. Nicodemus might have grand schemes in his mind but in the end it is just a lure. Anduriel got what he wanted, Nicodemus killed his own daughter and together with his wife they attacked the one who wanted to save them. The fallen are never finished with corrupting you.

It is their nature. It is what they do. Every time the denarian pop up that is what is really going on and the rest is background.

[The_Sibelis]

Still more of a fan of the future/alt Harry, in this case welding a coin. I'm pretty sure I can peg down a few instances where you can point a finger at Alt Harry's. Have a few ideas on that, including the premise the "circle" which only Cowl has mentioned is actually the 5 versions of Dresden traveling through time. I'll try not to here though lol, but

Nic has been falling as Harry is in ascent, and they are becoming foils/dark mirrors (Harry gains feal servants as Nic loses his

THIS, This is a thing. I connect it to the spire/endlessly repeating inverted time. To point out a few things, the first time we meet Nic he's dressed in a perfect inversion of Harry. Hat, goatee, light overcoat, nice clothes underneath. Even his actions are directly inverted from Harry's. Harry sacrifices the mother of his child to save her. Nic sacrifices his child in spit of the Mother for selfish reasons, ect.
One along this vein that supports the Harry/Cowl connection is the Raith Deeps. Nic manifests anduriel as a shadow. The mirror to this, would be Harry manifesting Lash as something Flaming... Which is exactly what cowl does when he gets P.Oed at Harry.
Thinking all TT shenanigans are closing the loop on the Harry we have now. Everything they've done, has actually helped the timeline, and we're late enough in the game we can actually see where. Offhand, no atheme means no Mab with a thumb on Harry, SK changes from there, no WK options later, CDs goes much worse, ect.

[groinkick]

According to Nicodemus, he is trying to save the world. 

Doesn't seem like an Outsider sentiment, regardless of what one thinks Nicodemus means by saving.  The Outsiders want to undo Creation.  Nicodemus probably seeks to preserve Creation -- under new management, of course.

If Nicodemus see's himself as some sort of hero, Nemesis could exploit that.  Manipulate him into thinking he's saving the world when it's the opposite.

[groinkick]

Then why would cowl give leah the infested athame?

Logic and reason have not place here ...  Ok so maybe Cowl is dark side.  Still I could see Nicodemus being Nemfected and not knowing it.

[Mira]

Logic and reason have not place here ...  Ok so maybe Cowl is dark side.  Still I could see Nicodemus being Nemfected and not knowing it.

Or he does know it and is under the same illusion that he has a working partnership with Nemesis as he does or thinks he does with Anduriel.

[BrainFireBob]

If you ask Uriel what is at stake and why he does what he does he says souls, free will. It is not that different with the fallen, it is about souls and free will. Nicodemus might have grand schemes in his mind but in the end it is just a lure. Anduriel got what he wanted, Nicodemus killed his own daughter and together with his wife they attacked the one who wanted to save them. The fallen are never finished with corrupting you.

It is their nature. It is what they do. Every time the denarian pop up that is what is really going on and the rest is background.

This is reductive- needlessly so- to a traditional Judeo-Christian idea.

I strongly object to the idea that all Fallen are merrily fulfilling their duty of providing temptation. These are the rebels- I rather suspect they have their own agendas instead of a classic mustache-twirling focus on temptation. That's what Lucifer's obedient servants do- the Fallen are not those.

[BrainFireBob]

If Nicodemus see's himself as some sort of hero, Nemesis could exploit that.  Manipulate him into thinking he's saving the world when it's the opposite.

Nicodemus is aware of Nemesis, or at least its effects. He asked Harry at the very beginning of their encounters if he had noticed things defying their own nature.

Personally, I always suspected the favor Nic performed for Mab had to do with eliminating someone Nemfected. Anduriel's shadow-listening would make it easier to identify someone who violates their own nature.

[Arjan]

This is reductive- needlessly so- to a traditional Judeo-Christian idea.

I strongly object to the idea that all Fallen are merrily fulfilling their duty of providing temptation. These are the rebels- I rather suspect they have their own agendas instead of a classic mustache-twirling focus on temptation. That's what Lucifer's obedient servants do- the Fallen are not those.

It fits with what Lash told about herself when she still thought about herself as Lasciel. About all the countless souls she had seduced and destroyed.

It fits with everything else we hear about the fallen except for the lies their hosts tell themselves.

[Mira]

If Nicodemus see's himself as some sort of hero, Nemesis could exploit that.  Manipulate him into thinking he's saving the world when it's the opposite.

Yup, that is what Nemesis does best, it was that tactic that nearly got Lea and did get Maeve.