What does this mean?

[Yuillegan]

Psychopath and sociopath are not as clear cut psychologically as people expect, it's actually easier to understand in some ways from a brain chemistry perspective. Webster's gives an overly simplistic definition for an extremely complex area. Those kind of definitions are really to help people understand what the word means - particularly those learning the language. They're not really meant to be an ultimate summation or comprehensive nuanced definition.

I would put Marcone in the psychopath category though as he exhibits traits like planning and self-assuredness. Sociopaths tend to be more rash. Think the Joker (sociopath) versus Rhas Al Ghul (psychopath).

One of the main things is that psychopaths are born, sociopaths are made. Both suffer from a lack of empathy. Although recent research suggests that it isn't that they lack empathy entirely, merely that they can turn it off (or rather have to turn it on, as their main state tends to be less empathetic) - particularly psychopaths. It's still an emerging field of study so absolute statements are a bit tricky.

If Dresden were either, I would be more inclined to believe he is a sociopath based on his tendencies and his history. However as we get a unique look inside his head I am not so certain that he is either. Being capable of great violence, or zealous pathological hate, isn't the exclusive domain of sociopaths or psychopaths unfortunately. The world would probably be a far kinder place if it were...although arguably we might have died out long ago without those very traits. It's a fascinating field of science.

Also Mira, sorry for your loss. That's a horrible thing to have to go through.

If not something like this, what is it that you think the destroyer will do?  And why are people so afraid of the thing? Why does Jim keep writing these freakouts, where the only way to stop Harry is to hurt him?  He did this as early as Grave Peril.  Had Lea not been there the three of them would have died. 

I do agree with this. Jim is showing human behaviour but he is also showing us Harry's flaws. I think the biggest difference is Harry does spend a lot of his mental effort trying to not become the monster. He isn't entirely successful but the fact that he is trying at all is a lot better than many psychopaths and sociopaths...who might not even recognise the need to fight it at all/recognise that committing monstrous acts is *evil*.

Harry is definitely being set up as a potential big monster though. That's part of the character and the foreshadowing is very clear. It helps make the character more interesting (at least in my view). It's often why characters like Superman are so boring, especially the early stuff. People who seem to be completely *good* are inhuman and impossible to relate to. Even Jesus had more questionable moments in his life than Superman did in his early comics, and one of them was the son of God.

The thing is, if Harry overcomes his darkness it makes him nobler. Overcoming adversity and choosing to be better when it's hard is much more interesting and admirable than choosing to be good when it's easy. It certainly makes for better reading. So it's almost certain Harry will face harder and harder choices and greater darkness both external and internal. That's been a constant of the series since the beginning and it's unlikely to change.

[Mira]

Harry is definitely being set up as a potential big monster though. That's part of the character and the foreshadowing is very clear. It helps make the character more interesting (at least in my view). It's often why characters like Superman are so boring, especially the early stuff. People who seem to be completely *good* are inhuman and impossible to relate to. Even Jesus had more questionable moments in his life than Superman did in his early comics, and one of them was the son of God.

That is what makes Harry intriguing as a character, in regards to himself he rarely takes the easy way out.  That is the thing about temptation, and maybe what separates warlock from wizard, or as in Star Wars the "darkside" verses the "lightside" of the Force..  The darkside is easier, quicker, than the lightside, but it takes a little of your soul with each use until you turn into a monster.  It is a constant struggle, because it is easier, and this is what Harry struggles against.

[Arjan]

If not something like this, what is it that you think the destroyer will do?  And why are people so afraid of the thing? Why does Jim keep writing these freakouts, where the only way to stop Harry is to hurt him?  He did this as early as Grave Peril.  Had Lea not been there the three of them would have died.

Because his anger caused by something evil or his care for one person can become so strong that it overrides other emotions and rationals and may make him do things that are not wise, cause regret later and are evil. That is not what a sociopath will do. It is just the wrong diagnosis.

A sociopath is missing some important emotions, not having an overdose of others.

[Mira]

Because his anger caused by something evil or his care for one person can become so strong that it overrides other emotions and rationals and may make him do things that are not wise, cause regret later and are evil. That is not what a sociopath will do. It is just the wrong diagnosis.

A sociopath is missing some important emotions, not having an overdose of others.

Agreed, and yes, I realize that being a sociopath is more complicated than the simple dictionary definition, but Harry just doesn't fit that diagnosis.

[morriswalters]

He fits some of the parameters and not others.  However if you don't see it that way, OK.

I suppose I should let this go.  But it aggravates me to no end that Jim has spent so much time painting a picture of a man on the edge, with no clear path on how that setup will be used.

It's almost like he's writing the Incredible Hulk.  I keep waiting for Harry to turn green and Hulk out. Harry smash!!!n  /sigh...

[Mira]

He fits some of the parameters and not others.  However if you don't see it that way, OK.

I suppose I should let this go.  But it aggravates me to no end that Jim has spent so much time painting a picture of a man on the edge, with no clear path on how that setup will be used.

It's almost like he's writing the Incredible Hulk.  I keep waiting for Harry to turn green and Hulk out. Harry smash!!!n  /sigh...

Actually considering all that has been thrown at Harry since he was five years old, he is pretty level headed.

[Arjan]

He fits some of the parameters and not others.  However if you don't see it that way, OK.

I suppose I should let this go.  But it aggravates me to no end that Jim has spent so much time painting a picture of a man on the edge, with no clear path on how that setup will be used.

It's almost like he's writing the Incredible Hulk.  I keep waiting for Harry to turn green and Hulk out. Harry smash!!!n  /sigh...

It is used continuously. As a reason why people distrust Harry. As a danger that can pop up any moment. As something Harry has to overcome. As a source of narrative tension.

Emotions are dangerous. Especially for a wizard.

[Yuillegan]

That is what makes Harry intriguing as a character, in regards to himself he rarely takes the easy way out.  That is the thing about temptation, and maybe what separates warlock from wizard, or as in Star Wars the "darkside" verses the "lightside" of the Force..  The darkside is easier, quicker, than the lightside, but it takes a little of your soul with each use until you turn into a monster.  It is a constant struggle, because it is easier, and this is what Harry struggles against.

I agree with pretty much all of this - except the separation between warlocks and wizards. Unfortunately there seems to be a direct negative effect associated with touching black magic (which is pretty much the same as Star Wars funnily enough). It's almost a form of radiation, it poisons and corrupts whatever it comes into contact with. I am not so sure a warlock can stop being a warlock after a while. They become tainted and mutated, corrupted. It's pretty directly drawn from Warhammer's concept of Chaos.

Because his anger caused by something evil or his care for one person can become so strong that it overrides other emotions and rationals and may make him do things that are not wise, cause regret later and are evil. That is not what a sociopath will do. It is just the wrong diagnosis.

A sociopath is missing some important emotions, not having an overdose of others.

Yes and no. It's an oversimplification. Sociopaths and psychopaths experience plenty of rage, mania, sadness, even joy. They can experience pretty much the full range of human emotion. It's their processing of it that has issues. As I said, it's an extremely complicated and debated area. Unfortunately there is a lot of confusion on the terms as much of what people understand them to be is based on outdated terms and theories, or misunderstandings of the science.

But I do agree that Harry probably isn't either, yet. He could well become one.

He fits some of the parameters and not others.  However if you don't see it that way, OK.

I suppose I should let this go.  But it aggravates me to no end that Jim has spent so much time painting a picture of a man on the edge, with no clear path on how that setup will be used.

It's almost like he's writing the Incredible Hulk.  I keep waiting for Harry to turn green and Hulk out. Harry smash!!!n  /sigh...

Indeed, that's sometimes what makes diagnosis so tricky. And the diagnosis can be wrong which creates even more problems.

Harry does display some worrying psychological tendencies though, regardless. Which could be the result of his experiences affecting his psyche as well as possibly black magic warping him, or perhaps having a more-than-mortal nature (like being a starborn). We just don't know enough about it all yet. But we do know that Harry is one to worry about. He could well have killed Rudolph in that alley and he was out of control, as out of control as Ebenezar seemed too I might add (when they duelled in Peace Talks).

I'd argue he has gone Hulk more than a few times. The real question is what the ceiling is? How big and bad can Hulk-Harry get? What might he do then?

[Yuillegan]

It is used continuously. As a reason why people distrust Harry. As a danger that can pop up any moment. As something Harry has to overcome. As a source of narrative tension.

Emotions are dangerous. Especially for a wizard.

Are emotions dangerous for a wizard? I distinctly remember Harry saying that emotions are fuel for magic, good and bad emotions. I don't think it's clear that all emotions are bad for magic.

[Mira]

Are emotions dangerous for a wizard? I distinctly remember Harry saying that emotions are fuel for magic, good and bad emotions. I don't think it's clear that all emotions are bad for magic.

No, but as in life, too much emotion can be as harmful as too little. 

[Arjan]

Are emotions dangerous for a wizard? I distinctly remember Harry saying that emotions are fuel for magic, good and bad emotions. I don't think it's clear that all emotions are bad for magic.

They are fuel and motivation but the dangers of strong emotions are a recurring theme in the books, not just with Harry.

Sometimes your own emotions and sometimes emotions acquired with power like the bloodlust of a red court vampire or the violent emotions of the winter mantle. Free will is seen as something that can override these emotions.

[Arjan]

I agree with pretty much all of this - except the separation between warlocks and wizards. Unfortunately there seems to be a direct negative effect associated with touching black magic (which is pretty much the same as Star Wars funnily enough). It's almost a form of radiation, it poisons and corrupts whatever it comes into contact with. I am not so sure a warlock can stop being a warlock after a while. They become tainted and mutated, corrupted. It's pretty directly drawn from Warhammer's concept of Chaos.
Yes and no. It's an oversimplification. Sociopaths and psychopaths experience plenty of rage, mania, sadness, even joy. They can experience pretty much the full range of human emotion. It's their processing of it that has issues. As I said, it's an extremely complicated and debated area. Unfortunately there is a lot of confusion on the terms as much of what people understand them to be is based on outdated terms and theories, or misunderstandings of the science.

But I do agree that Harry probably isn't either, yet. He could well become one.
Indeed, that's sometimes what makes diagnosis so tricky. And the diagnosis can be wrong which creates even more problems.

Harry does display some worrying psychological tendencies though, regardless. Which could be the result of his experiences affecting his psyche as well as possibly black magic warping him, or perhaps having a more-than-mortal nature (like being a starborn). We just don't know enough about it all yet. But we do know that Harry is one to worry about. He could well have killed Rudolph in that alley and he was out of control, as out of control as Ebenezar seemed too I might add (when they duelled in Peace Talks).

I'd argue he has gone Hulk more than a few times. The real question is what the ceiling is? How big and bad can Hulk-Harry get? What might he do then?

Sociopath and psychopath are about emotions connected with the human herd instinct especially morality and shame. Even if they feel it they don’t feel it as something they should act upon. I do not see that with Harry.

[BrainFireBob]

I agree with pretty much all of this - except the separation between warlocks and wizards. Unfortunately there seems to be a direct negative effect associated with touching black magic (which is pretty much the same as Star Wars funnily enough). It's almost a form of radiation, it poisons and corrupts whatever it comes into contact with. I am not so sure a warlock can stop being a warlock after a while. They become tainted and mutated, corrupted. It's pretty directly drawn from Warhammer's concept of Chaos.
Yes and no. It's an oversimplification. Sociopaths and psychopaths experience plenty of rage, mania, sadness, even joy. They can experience pretty much the full range of human emotion. It's their processing of it that has issues. As I said, it's an extremely complicated and debated area. Unfortunately there is a lot of confusion on the terms as much of what people understand them to be is based on outdated terms and theories, or misunderstandings of the science.

But I do agree that Harry probably isn't either, yet. He could well become one.
Indeed, that's sometimes what makes diagnosis so tricky. And the diagnosis can be wrong which creates even more problems.

Harry does display some worrying psychological tendencies though, regardless. Which could be the result of his experiences affecting his psyche as well as possibly black magic warping him, or perhaps having a more-than-mortal nature (like being a starborn). We just don't know enough about it all yet. But we do know that Harry is one to worry about. He could well have killed Rudolph in that alley and he was out of control, as out of control as Ebenezar seemed too I might add (when they duelled in Peace Talks).

I'd argue he has gone Hulk more than a few times. The real question is what the ceiling is? How big and bad can Hulk-Harry get? What might he do then?

Re: Warlocks and wizards, I've long thought all magic has a "backlash"- or more accurately, each use of magic has the effect of changing your nature to make it easier to do that same thing again.

This would explain why old wizards become immune to mind tampering- they literally become set in their ways after centuries of such backlash.

As an analogy: Most magic creatures are "hard"- their nature is fixed, but their use of magic is easy, natural, and effortless. Humans have free will- this makes them comparatively "squishy", and they gradually work-harden by using magic. If that work hardening is a re-aligning of themselves to make it easier to repeat the feats, then magic "in harmony" with nature would increase their harmony with nature, and "unnatural" magic that abuses nature/magic (dark magic) would be like a stain, as described.

This would explain ability at magic growing over time, the mental fixity of older wizards, and warlocks. Harry's strength would be indicative of most people are mud, and he started as fairly rigid clay with lots of grit- harder to reshape period.

[Yuillegan]

No, but as in life, too much emotion can be as harmful as too little.

Fair enough. Balance in all things.

They are fuel and motivation but the dangers of strong emotions are a recurring theme in the books, not just with Harry.

Sometimes your own emotions and sometimes emotions acquired with power like the bloodlust of a red court vampire or the violent emotions of the winter mantle. Free will is seen as something that can override these emotions.

Without willpower, would emotions even matter? If you have no will you cannot act. Emotions are an effect on will but not the source. I agree, there is great danger with both too much and too little emotion.

Sociopath and psychopath are about emotions connected with the human herd instinct especially morality and shame. Even if they feel it they don’t feel it as something they should act upon. I do not see that with Harry.

As I say, it's an intensely complicated subject. Whether psychopaths and/or sociopaths do or don't believe they should act in certain ways is still a point of contention amongst researchers. I don't have a definite answer on it because there is merit in arguments on both sides. I doubt we will come to any real conclusions anytime soon as research in this field tends to take a long time to show any meaningful results, and there are larger problems in how research is done in academia (but that's a whole other issue).

Re: Warlocks and wizards, I've long thought all magic has a "backlash"- or more accurately, each use of magic has the effect of changing your nature to make it easier to do that same thing again.

This would explain why old wizards become immune to mind tampering- they literally become set in their ways after centuries of such backlash.

As an analogy: Most magic creatures are "hard"- their nature is fixed, but their use of magic is easy, natural, and effortless. Humans have free will- this makes them comparatively "squishy", and they gradually work-harden by using magic. If that work hardening is a re-aligning of themselves to make it easier to repeat the feats, then magic "in harmony" with nature would increase their harmony with nature, and "unnatural" magic that abuses nature/magic (dark magic) would be like a stain, as described.

This would explain ability at magic growing over time, the mental fixity of older wizards, and warlocks. Harry's strength would be indicative of most people are mud, and he started as fairly rigid clay with lots of grit- harder to reshape period.

Like a self-programming remote! The more you use it one way, the more it tries to be used that way.

I think you're pretty on the money with all that. Although surely even older wizards are not shielded totally from the side-effects of using black magic. But who knows?

It certainly makes sense in line with other WOJ about mutability etc. When asked about Grey, Jim spoke about how if Grey ate enough of Harry's magic it would make him pretty much Harry. He effectively forces himself to change. This is because Grey has Free Will. Whereas Naagloshii (being immortal) are immutable. They can eat Harry's magic and still be themselves. In fact, the words he says about Grey is "the more you become something other than you are, the less of you is left over". That might be basically what happens with black magic. You can choose to become a monster by committing monstrous acts, but then you no longer really are "you" - the being that you started off as.

Which begs the question - how do immortal "good" creatures go bad? Like Lucifer, or even the Naagloshii themselves? Something to do with Outsiders I'd bet.

[Mira]

I think you're pretty on the money with all that. Although surely even older wizards are not shielded totally from the side-effects of using black magic. But who knows?

Using black magic or having it used on them?  As in what really happened to Justin?  He had the rep of being a very good Warden when he retired, but then he went warlock.. He's been called that what he did to Elaine and tried to do to Harry were clearly warlock moves, so what corrupted him? Was it just a series of wrong choices and wrong answers?