Was Maggie an OG black Council member?

[groinkick]

She traveled with a rough crowd but something came to me when reading up on her recently.  Lucio said Maggie was watched by the Wardens because she was a threat to the laws of magic.  She had strong opinions of the Laws, and what she didn't like about them.  Who did this remind me of?  Kumori...  She tried to explain to Harry that Necromancy, a violation of the Laws could be used for good.  How it could prevent the deaths of many good people...  That sounds a lot like something Maggie would say in my opinion.  Cowl and Kumori believe the Council is rotten to the core....  Who does that sound like?  Maggie, in my opinion. 

Heck I'm even wondering if Kumori is Maggie, saved by necromancy but forced to stay away from Harry for some reason.  Even if it's not though, her philosophy seems very similar to Maggie's.  Perhaps Maggie was Black Council, and from her perspective they aren't the bad guys.

[Mira]

She may have been for a time because she was full of anger and rebellion, people full of those feelings often travel down the wrong road until they come to their senses, then if it isn't too late they right themselves.  I think this was the case for Margaret.

[Yuillegan]

It wouldn't surprise me. Jim often says he is a lazy writer...he has left that material in there for a reason. Could well be that she was part of the Black Council. I can't for certain say she was OG...simply because we don't really know how old the organization is, or even what it is. Not for nothing, but Kemmler (in A Fistful of Warlocks, 1800s) had a sort of proto organization of the Black Council but I believe it was the early Thule Society. Perhaps it's even older than that.

Margaret also is known to most of the supernatural community, particularly a lot of shady characters. The Erlking, Goodman Grey (possibly his father too), Nicodemus, Lea, Lord Raith, Arianna Ortega, possibly Cowl, quite possibly Mab and/or other Queens of Faerie, all the Senior Council members of the last 25 years, all the Wardens of the same time period (not the new ones that are not Morgan and Luccio's generation), probably a lot of the older Council, probably Vadderung, demons in Hell knew of her coming. Doesn't make her look particularly clean...until you compare her associations with Harry's and it's easier to see she might not have been so bad. Still though, Grey described her as a "peace of work" and he knew her. I doubt he would describe Harry the same way. Make of that what you will.

I doubt that Kumori is Margaret. Her manner with Dresden is more like an old friend, admirer, ex-lover etc. I certainly hope it isn't his mother (ew). But she doesn't treat him like a parent would a child anyway, even an estranged parent.

[Griffyn612]

I still think "Black Council" is too misleading of a term for the bad guys' alliance(s).

I think Maggie was a founding member of a group that included herself, DuMorne, Raith, Arianna, almost Eb, and others. I think she wanted the group to break the rules to accomplish noble goals. I think they wanted to break the rules for selfish goals. When she realized that, she tried to get out.

I think it disbanded after Maggie's death since she was the driving force, but mortal members of that group ended up forming a wizard-only group that became the "Black Council". They kept their contacts with the other factions and worked together when needed for common gain.

[Mira]

Still though, Grey described her as a "peace of work" and he knew her. I doubt he would describe Harry the same way. Make of that what you will

That is his impression though, and it depends on what time of her life he knew her.  I doubt she was the same woman he knew after she met and married Malcolm.  As far as that goes, I imagine there are those that would describe Mr Grey as a piece of work as well.

[Yuillegan]

I used to use the term the Circle but as it hasn't been used since White Knight it's a little obscure and often people didn't know what organization I was talking about. And it isn't clear that they're the same organization. Or even if either thing is an organization.

The only problem with that theory Griff is that Maggie seems a bit naive in that scenario. Surely she would know at least Raith and Ariana, and any such dark beings, would wants to break the system for their own ends. No, I think Maggie got recruited to a group who she thought were going to improve the world by breaking a few eggs. A greater good type thing. Probably Cowl or someone like him was in charge. Cowl does already have a history of recruiting idealists. But when Maggie realized it was never anything more than a power grab/chance to cause chaos - she ran. Maybe also because she knew how horrible the end game was and decided she had to stop it. Who knows.

That is his impression though, and it depends on what time of her life he knew her.  I doubt she was the same woman he knew after she met and married Malcolm.  As far as that goes, I imagine there are those that would describe Mr Grey as a piece of work as well.

I'm not saying she isn't capable of being more than simply a villain. But this is the Dresden Files we are talking about, she isn't going to be all that nice. It's all about subverting the narrative and creating pain for Harry. I agree she likely was trying to reform when she met Malcolm. But like Marcone, or Kincaid, or Ebenezar etc it doesn't excuse whatever other terrible things they have done. I think it will shake Harry to the core. Yes, Goodman doesn't have a glowing reference exactly...Binder was afraid of him and Michael detested him. I'd say he is another Kincaid type. Almost the same character anyway.

[Griffyn612]

The only problem with that theory Griff is that Maggie seems a bit naive in that scenario. Surely he would know at least Raith and Ariana, and any such dark beings, would wants to break the system for their own ends. No, I think Maggie got recruited to a group who she thought were going to improve the world by breaking a few eggs. A greater good type thing. Probably Cowl or someone like him was in charge. Cowl does already have a history of recruiting idealists. But when Maggie realized it was never anything more than a power grab/chance to cause chaos - she ran. Maybe also because she knew how horrible the end game was and decided she had to stop it. Who knows.

I don't think she would think they'd do it altruistically. But I think she thought they'd all be on-board with winning that war once and for all. Because nobody would work with Outsiders, that's just crazy.

But then she found out that Raith himself is Mister Outsider Fan Numero Uno, and the rest didn't want to seal them out so much as control them (Raith and DuMorne both summoning Behind seems like a team training exercise). So she bailed on the plot.

(Which I still think the plot was an effort to create a starborn. One that she wanted to use to defeat the Outsiders, and they wanted to use to control the Outsiders)

[Yuillegan]

Depends on what the goals were. Are they trying to change the status quo in the world or defeat the Outsiders, or both?

Could well be right about the plot. Hard to see why else Harry came along.

[Griffyn612]

Depends on what the goals were. Are they trying to change the status quo in the world or defeat the Outsiders, or both?

Could well be right about the plot. Hard to see why else Harry came along.

It could have started with Margaret learning of Winter's purpose, and seeing the Gates for herself. She decided she could play a role in ending the eternal conflict, and reached out to those she thought were powerful enough to help her do that. She assumed that everyone had a line they wouldn't cross, and that line was working with Outsiders.

Everyone nods and agrees with her, but enough are plotting for themselves. She learns of it, panics when she realizes she could hand over a weapon that could destroy reality rather than save it, and she runs.

[Mira]

I don't think she would think they'd do it altruistically. But I think she thought they'd all be on-board with winning that war once and for all. Because nobody would work with Outsiders, that's just crazy.

But then she found out that Raith himself is Mister Outsider Fan Numero Uno, and the rest didn't want to seal them out so much as control them (Raith and DuMorne both summoning Behind seems like a team training exercise). So she bailed on the plot.

(Which I still think the plot was an effort to create a starborn. One that she wanted to use to defeat the Outsiders, and they wanted to use to control the Outsiders)

You may be on to something there.. I also think Margaret was a complicated woman and very few knew her really well.  I don't think Rashid saw her as a "piece of work," I think she could be hard, and I think she may have been bitter.. 

[Snark Knight]

I doubt that Kumori is Margaret. Her manner with Dresden is more like an old friend, admirer, ex-lover etc. I certainly hope it isn't his mother (ew). But she doesn't treat him like a parent would a child anyway, even an estranged parent.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm on the Elaine bandwagon.

[forumghost]

I don't buy Maggie being Kumori (her being dead is kinda a big thing I think) but yeah, my theory is that Maggie is one of the founding members of the group of malcontents that are currently stirring shit. I think that she looked at a world where all these immensely powerful beings and organizations (like the Council) exist, and yet things keep going wrong, and decided to fix it By any Means Neccessary™.

So yeah, she hooked up with Raith and began chats with diverse others to essentially flip the table on the status quo and put people like her in charge- people that got it. People that would fix things.

Then she found out that her merry band of misfits was actually Evil all Along and being controlled by Outsiders to boot, so she realized she'd dun goofed and ran off to make Harry as a Guided Nuclear Missile to try and fix her mistakes.

That's why the message she left him in the soulgaze was an apology- She'd been a dangerous mix of Ambitious, Naive, and Arrogant, and now left her son pick up the pieces.

[TheCuriousFan]

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm on the Elaine bandwagon.

Mouse would have to be practically sleeping on the job to not try and warn Harry about that in WK considering he knows what Kumori smells like.

[seanham]

I think the Black Council has been around in one form or another since the creation of the White Council. It is a common trope that the "good" guys have some sort of "bad" counterpart that is working to destroy them from the inside (look at SHIELD and Hydra). Not sure if Jim would use such a common trope, but it makes sense to me. I think that Magaret associated with the current Black Council for some time but then broke away from them.

[Yuillegan]

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm on the Elaine bandwagon.

Quite so. Her manner only makes sense if she is someone who knows Harry (or even a Harry).

It could have started with Margaret learning of Winter's purpose, and seeing the Gates for herself. She decided she could play a role in ending the eternal conflict, and reached out to those she thought were powerful enough to help her do that. She assumed that everyone had a line they wouldn't cross, and that line was working with Outsiders.

Everyone nods and agrees with her, but enough are plotting for themselves. She learns of it, panics when she realizes she could hand over a weapon that could destroy reality rather than save it, and she runs.

That seems about right. I wonder who else was a part of the team. I doubt Mab would have been happy about such an organization. Which makes Lea as one of the members feel right. If she truly is Mab's "dearest enemy" then she has all the more reason to weaken Mab's position. If she isn't that much her enemy she also has reason to infiltrate such a group. If Lea wants to BE Mab one day, she has further reason to be on that team. Seems likely she was.

Mouse would have to be practically sleeping on the job to not try and warn Harry about that in WK considering he knows what Kumori smells like.

I wondered about this - until I thought about Mouse's Shadow. His lost twin brother that "people in dark cloaks with hoods" stole. If Cowl had such an animal perhaps they learned how to avoid being detected by it. Cowl and Kumori also hid their faces, bodies, and voices. I wouldn't put it past them to cloak their scents as well.

I think the Black Council has been around in one form or another since the creation of the White Council. It is a common trope that the "good" guys have some sort of "bad" counterpart that is working to destroy them from the inside (look at SHIELD and Hydra). Not sure if Jim would use such a common trope, but it makes sense to me. I think that Magaret associated with the current Black Council for some time but then broke away from them.

God I hope it's not a SHIELD and HYDRA situation. So boring to me personally.