Author Topic: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others  (Read 4473 times)

Offline groinkick

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how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« on: June 19, 2021, 07:57:53 PM »
So Jim said that Carlos is the type of wizard to beat Harry.  The fencer vs the weight lifter.  I know Harry has gotten some grief for his magical abilities, relying too much on pure power vs skill.  I will say though that Harry can absolutely beat wizards who have better magical talent. 

Dresden over the years has become a battle hardened fighter.  He's been beaten to the point of near death.  He's faced magic, guns, hand to hand, and other various combat.  He's often on his own, with little backup.  He hasn't had wardens by his side helping him face these threats.  He's been on his own for most of it, outclassed, and relying on pure grit to survive at times.

He's had to rely on more than just magic.  With all that he's learned I think he will combat other wizards by taking them out of their element, and using their instincts against them.

For example I see Harry using the Marcone approach.  Marcone had crafted bullets meant to punch through a wizards shield.  I see Harry (who is an expert in crafting magical items) using a wizards instincts against them.  Harry is losing fight, pulls gun other wizards inner dialogue "how pathetic", raises shield, enchanted bullet strikes shield, sending surge of power that travels through the wizard, horribly injuring them, but not killing.  Or his bullets may be similar to Lucio's swords, traveling through the shield. 

Carlos reminded Harry that wizards don't fight fair, and I think Harry will probably say those exact words to Carlos after beating him someday. 

Eb might be a different animal altogether.  He's been fighting for centuries and probably knows every trick.  Still, he's a wizard and has grown accustomed to fighting a certain way.  Harry might use something more modern to catch him by surprise. 

I guess my point is that Dresden understands his own limitations, and as Worf said on Star Trek when you're outclassed, and outgunned all you got left is guile.  Harry has fought the nitty gritty.  He knows what he can, and cannot do, and because of that he is a bit humbled by others abilities.  He knows Carlos is better on a technical level.  He won't face him on a level playing field, won't fight to Carlos's strengths.  He will exploit his weaknesses. 

Now that Harry is out of the White Council, and knows they may be targeting him, I expect Harry to prepare for it.  Before he always had the Council to fall back on as a last resort.  No longer.  He knows they may be coming for him, and he will arm himself accordingly.  I expect to see an improvement from him, some new tricks, and some new tools
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 08:00:23 PM by groinkick »
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Offline Mira

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2021, 08:29:43 PM »
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Eb might be a different animal altogether.  He's been fighting for centuries and probably knows every trick.  Still, he's a wizard and has grown accustomed to fighting a certain way.  Harry might use something more modern to catch him by surprise.

Which he totally did, he knows he doesn't have skill, experience, or juice to beat Eb one on one.. Nor frankly did he really want to injure his grandfather who was acting a bit out of control.  However he can out think him, which he did, he had his doppelganger fight him and lose, but it was a win because he wasn't killed, he got away, and it brought Eb back to his senses without anyone getting killed.  That was a win for Harry.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2021, 01:54:56 AM »
Carlos' obvious weaknesses are his physical ones. Back and leg injuries. His less obvious ones are his naivety and his willing to believe he himself is a good guy, and that Harry etc might have good left in him. Not to mention his ego, fear around women (particularly female monsters), and his lack of knowledge of Harry's tricks and advantages.

I think Harry would be smart to batter Ramirez psychologically and force some errors and exploit them. Harry should also attempt to force the confrontation on his own terms rather than wait for Ramirez to eventually ambush him. For example, I doubt Carlos knows of what Demonreach is and it's home ground advantage - but I suspect the Merlin would caution him from going there. Ideally, Ramirez will bring a team of wardens and possibly even a Senior Council member. But I suspect it won't happen that way in the books - Jim most likely will have it happen when Harry is tired, already beaten down, and unprepared. However, Harry won't actually be entirely unprepared as he will have taken counter-measures from the time Carlos warned him in Battle Ground etc.

Harry could always use dark magic too, if things were really desperate. Carlos likely is no better against mind-magic than most wardens and would be unprepared for Harry to do something like that.

Forcing Ramirez to use his mortal weapons would be dangerous for Harry as I think he is more modern when it comes to firearms etc. Hand to hand combat would suit Dresden as he is larger, more experienced, and has the power of the Winter Knight mantle (and Winter has already beaten Carlos before...). Harry shouldn't use water to try and nullify Ramirez's magic as Carlos is a water mage and might not be as affected as Harry, and might even be able to turn it back on Dresden. Harry should also be aware that Carlos will likely try and use cold iron of some sort to nullify Dresden's Winter mantle. Probably why Jim also gave Harry some power boost from Demonreach. I severely doubt Carlos knows about soulfire, especially that Harry has it (because even if Carlos knows about soulfire I doubt he thinks humans can wield it). This is a bit of an ace in the hole for Harry if he uses it right...not to mention Harry has those Arma Christi weapons.

However surely Ramirez will have his own tricks and probable ace up his sleeve. I'd suspect something that makes him better at duels...especially from a story writing perspective. Possibly enchanted bullets similar to what Marcone uses, or something high-tech. Possibly even a special power source.

Perhaps Harry will learn a new trick or two from River Shoulders. Some rudimentary shape shifting (I doubt you get to LtW level without a lot of help/practice/sponsorship), maybe some anti-magic defence like the grounding-out trick.

It will either be a very desperate close match OR Harry will tear him apart like he almost did to Fix...depending on what story Jim is writing.
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Offline Mira

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2021, 10:07:08 AM »
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It will either be a very desperate close match OR Harry will tear him apart like he almost did to Fix...depending on what story Jim is writing.

I think they will work it out, but I think Carlos has to work it all out for himself.  He's been hurt, he has lost friends, and he has drank a lot of Council Kool Aid..  I don't think at this point short of killing him there is anything Harry can do or say to convince him that things are not as they appear.

Offline Arjan

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2021, 11:56:56 AM »
With a sudden ambush. Never give a wizard time to think.


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Wizards can potentially wield tremendous power against just about anything that might come along—if we’re ready to handle it. The problem is that the things that come after us know that too, so the favored tactic is the sudden ambush. Wizards might live a long time, but we aren’t rend-proof. You’ve got to think ahead in order to have enough time to act when the heat is on.

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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2021, 02:00:06 PM »
Honestly, the best way for Harry to convince Carlos that he's not a maniacal bad guy is to lose in a fight to Carlos. Then when Carlos wonders why it was so easy, Harry can very angrily shout that it's because Harry has spent exactly zero time trying to figure out how to defeat the friends and allies he trusts wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately his wholehearted trust in Carlos is gone now, between Carlos' actions and Harry's knowledge of Nemeside.

Offline Avernite

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2021, 02:02:18 PM »
The obvious best option is to get in close and start punching. It's how Molly/the WL got him, after all, and it worked extremely well.

Now, Eb has magical countermeasures to stop that kind of thing, so he'd be harder to crack.

Offline Mira

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2021, 02:16:58 PM »
Honestly, the best way for Harry to convince Carlos that he's not a maniacal bad guy is to lose in a fight to Carlos. Then when Carlos wonders why it was so easy, Harry can very angrily shout that it's because Harry has spent exactly zero time trying to figure out how to defeat the friends and allies he trusts wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately his wholehearted trust in Carlos is gone now, between Carlos' actions and Harry's knowledge of Nemeside.


I don't think losing a fight to Carlos is that good of an idea.. 1] He could lose his head as a result, 2] if he is dead, that might convince Carlos, but it won't help Harry. 3] If Carlos has been truly brainwashed, it is going to be very hard for Harry or anyone else to deprogram him.

Offline Arjan

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2021, 03:50:03 PM »
Harry probably still has some friends in the council. Picking fights is just not a good idea. Especially because if the council attacks Mab might react violently while if Harry attacks Mab will probably tell Harry to solve the problems he created.
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Offline seanham

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2021, 03:51:20 AM »
If or when Carlos and Harry square off, I think they will be going at it verbally and magically until some larger big bad shows up, and they have a temporary truce so they can battle the big bad. During the battle, Harry uses how own body to save Carlos's life, thus restoring Carlos's faith in Harry.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2021, 06:39:02 AM »
I think they will work it out, but I think Carlos has to work it all out for himself.  He's been hurt, he has lost friends, and he has drank a lot of Council Kool Aid..  I don't think at this point short of killing him there is anything Harry can do or say to convince him that things are not as they appear.
I am not so sure. It depends on the role of the character. Former friend becomes an antagonist...it's not unusual. That being said there is a lot of love for Ramirez out there so might be a poor option for Jim to go with, at least long term. I think that it might be the reverse that convinces Ramirez (to a point) that Harry is trying to be a good guy. That being said there are some things that are not even known to Harry (like dark magic stuff etc) that might mean Carlos' behaviour isn't as unwarranted as it appears, let alone the stuff that warrants his aggression. Ramirez is on the right track to be the Merlin eventually assuming the Council survives.

With a sudden ambush. Never give a wizard time to think.
Indeed. Although Carlos is pretty good at dealing with ambushes...I'd probably just hire Kincaid myself and have him do it. He is highly effective.

Honestly, the best way for Harry to convince Carlos that he's not a maniacal bad guy is to lose in a fight to Carlos. Then when Carlos wonders why it was so easy, Harry can very angrily shout that it's because Harry has spent exactly zero time trying to figure out how to defeat the friends and allies he trusts wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately his wholehearted trust in Carlos is gone now, between Carlos' actions and Harry's knowledge of Nemeside.
Very true. Worked with Morgan why not with Ramirez? Assuming Ramirez has no mind altering influences like Nemesis, black magic, etc.

I also think Ramirez may well escalate things and Harry might take that personally. Not so sure that Harry will surrender though...he is pretty sick of being the White Council's punching bag.

Harry probably still has some friends in the council. Picking fights is just not a good idea. Especially because if the council attacks Mab might react violently while if Harry attacks Mab will probably tell Harry to solve the problems he created.
I can't see Mab attacking unless it was a hit on Winter as a whole/interfered with her plans. Which is possible. Remember, Summer exists to protect humans from Winter. If Mab did attack the White Council, it is Summer's purpose to respond.

If or when Carlos and Harry square off, I think they will be going at it verbally and magically until some larger big bad shows up, and they have a temporary truce so they can battle the big bad. During the battle, Harry uses how own body to save Carlos's life, thus restoring Carlos's faith in Harry.
Could well go that way. I hope not though as it's a bit easy and predictable. I wouldn't mind Jim taking more of a risk and doing something more interesting.

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Offline Arjan

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2021, 07:19:11 AM »
I can't see Mab attacking unless it was a hit on Winter as a whole/interfered with her plans.
If it was a massive attack of the white council against her knight without Harry giving them a reasonable excuse Mab has to react.
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Which is possible. Remember, Summer exists to protect humans from Winter. If Mab did attack the White Council, it is Summer's purpose to respond.
Not if it is a measured response to something the council did. Besides the councils human status is debatable.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2021, 07:54:17 AM »
If it was a massive attack of the white council against her knight without Harry giving them a reasonable excuse Mab has to react.

Not if it is a measured response to something the council did. Besides the councils human status is debatable.
Why does Mab have to react? Mab doesn't have to do anything. She has other candidates for being the Winter Knight. She doesn't need more enemies she is flat-out keeping up with all her current ones (Outsiders, Denarians, Summer, humans, Fomor, etc). If Harry being killed/incarcerated etc interferes with her plans and ability to do her duty then she would stop it, let alone seek revenge. But then again, times are dire and she might not have the resources to spare. Just look at her reactions earlier. She has to keep checking Summer's moves even though the Red Court invaded her sovereign territory AND brought Outsiders.

I don't remember any conditions on Summer's purpose. If Mab attacks humans/the mortal world then Summer must protect them. It's pretty clear. Doesn't matter whether she gets attacked first. As for the Council...they're still mortal after all. Freaks perhaps by the supernatural world's standards but still mortal.

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Offline Arjan

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2021, 08:41:42 AM »
Why does Mab have to react? Mab doesn't have to do anything. She has other candidates for being the Winter Knight.
That is not the point.
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She doesn't need more enemies she is flat-out keeping up with all her current ones
An organization like the white council openly attacking and even killing a member of her household without an excuse she can use as well is an enemy and needs to be put on their place immediately otherwise others will interpret it as a sign of weakness which she can not afford.
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(Outsiders, Denarians, Summer, humans, Fomor, etc). If Harry being killed/incarcerated etc interferes with her plans and ability to do her duty then she would stop it, let alone seek revenge. But then again, times are dire and she might not have the resources to spare. Just look at her reactions earlier. She has to keep checking Summer's moves even though the Red Court invaded her sovereign territory AND brought Outsiders.
She was weakened because she did not have a functioning lady and a functioning knight. Besides it all went as planned, she can wait a few months with her revenge but that only means she has to win big later.

Mab was pretty explicit when she discussed it with Lara in the beginning of peace talks. Harry is part of her household. She can not just let it pass if the white council attacks him without some excuse. The white council knows this as well, otherwise they wouldn't have to resort to that strange construction they are using now. They are scared of Mab.

She threatened to kill Lara if she merely nibbled from Harry's life energy. That is pretty explicit.

Which they would not be if they had summer to protect them. Of course they also know that if they leave Mab alone then she can not do much. And that definitely also means leaving her household alone.
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I don't remember any conditions on Summer's purpose. If Mab attacks humans/the mortal world then Summer must protect them. It's pretty clear. Doesn't matter whether she gets attacked first. As for the Council...they're still mortal after all. Freaks perhaps by the supernatural world's standards but still mortal.
No it is not clear at all. It is just their general task. When wizards meddle in the affairs of Winter Summer is in no way obliged to help them. The books would have been totally different. And attacking the winter knight out of the blue is definitely meddling in winters affairs. Besides protecting mortals against winter is not the same as protecting every mortal against winter, they are clearly not doing that.

And everyone can have their own definition of mortal, that one the wizards use to decide what they can and can not kill is just one possible definition because like dead mortal is a spectrum, not a line. We already saw that Thomas was mortal enough for Mab to Harry's surprise.

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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: how Harry could beat Carlos, Eb, and others
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2021, 08:44:47 AM »

Harry could always use dark magic too, if things were really desperate. Carlos likely is no better against mind-magic than most wardens and would be unprepared for Harry to do something like that.
Harry's offense is basically a joke when it comes to neuromancy, he's a tank defensively but he absolutely isn't up to using it offensively, Mab even jokes about the idea.
I can't see Mab attacking unless it was a hit on Winter as a whole/interfered with her plans. Which is possible. Remember, Summer exists to protect humans from Winter. If Mab did attack the White Council, it is Summer's purpose to respond.
It's one of the reasons why they seem to be going for this whole out but we'll still dictate terms setup considering the woj about how the threat of starting a war with Mab is why they don't just obliterate Harry.
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