Author Topic: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.  (Read 13395 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2021, 10:08:35 AM »
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Of two minds about this, on one hand yeah he is kind of bad at magic but it's getting a bit exaggerated just how incompetent he is at times. But on the other hand he definitely isn't senior council level considering Ebenezar is running around with a staff blast that's at least 1000x as strong and better coat equivalent and he's not the senior council's enchanting specialist, he's top of the line for his generation when it comes to making things but still can't hold a candle to the older wizards in skill.

He isn't bad at magic, he just isn't as formally trained as some.  Yes, Justin gave him some of the basics, but when Harry killed him and was declared a full wizard he was only sixteen, many apprentices are just getting into the meat of their training at age, he was with Eb until the age of nineteen, but Eb taught him little or no magic during those three years.  Some books were forbidden to him at the Council Headquarters, it is almost like the Council is afraid if he learns too much magic they won't be able to control him at all.  In a lot of ways, Harry is self taught, and he only learns what he needs to, to survive.  Yes, he is very good at making his blasting rods and shield bracelets because no one would teach him or practice with him the finer points of attack and defense, so he had to improvise.  Consider how good he became at mind defense and attack because he and Molly broke rules after Harry realized how bad the defense sanctioned by the Council.  How much better he has gotten over all because he has had to study in order to teach Molly, as Eb predicted.  I think that in of itself has taught Harry a lesson, he knows now he has to be better, so he will study.. And he still has the Winter Lady to spar with, if she has time.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2021, 03:52:17 PM »
While he has shown some advanced defensive magics, he has not demonstrated a single offensive ability beyond enchanting single-shot muskets. Unless he's got a lot more hidden away, Harry can laugh at his attacks behind his shield and wear him down.

Even Hand explained that what he's doing with the antique guns is enchanting them to punch through shields. Looking obsolete is camoflage for how dangerous they really are.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2021, 02:48:04 AM »
He's probably right about Marcone being not up to par in a number of ways, because Marcone is supposed to be keeping pace with Harry rather than being better both in terms of brawling and organisation. Marcone could still win a 1v1 if he let Namshiel take the wheel for a few minutes but fat chance of that.

As for why the other denarians don't really make with the magic too much, presumably because if every denarian was a super-wizard on top of their other abilities it'd be just absolutely impossible to balance them as an antagonist.
Based on what Harry had seen of Marcone at the time of course. Mira is right that we haven't yet seen a whole lot yet from Marcone...which doesn't mean Marcone can't do certain things of course.

I found the answer to the Denarian problem is way back in Death Masks. It's that a wizard gets a real upgrade compared to a mortal with no training. Which could suggest that Marcone has had magical talent a LOT longer than he has been letting on. Which would make sense. Marcone doesn't advertise more than he has to.

Marcone/Namshiel have no real shot at defeating Harry in a duel at present.

While he has shown some advanced defensive magics, he has not demonstrated a single offensive ability beyond enchanting single-shot muskets. Unless he's got a lot more hidden away, Harry can laugh at his attacks behind his shield and wear him down.

That's not to say he won't become a magical threat. It just makes more sense for him to learn defensive magic first and rely on his army of troubleshooters for offense.  Once he feels he can adequately defend against one or two Wardens, he start learning offense so he can be more self-sufficient. He only revealed what he had because Ethniu was an unexpected situation and the battle was at the desperate last stand there on the beach. 
Don't be surprised when he does demonstrate massive offensive capability though. He might just be more economical than Harry. Not to mention Marcone doesn't show more than he needs to as you even say. He might have waited years to reveal his Coin and magic until Ethniu forced his hand. Which shows just how dangerous the guy is.

Marcone didn't like the odds in Battle Ground and declined and it cost him the Eye and his castle.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. He might not have liked the odds but it's his comments that give it away. He says he has finally begun to think long term...from a guy who was already thinking fairly long term (certainly longer than most, especially Dresden). He might starting to be thinking in terms of centuries, if not longer. He might have realised it's better to let Dresden dig his own grave than take him head on. He might have realised that taking the Eye will only further isolate Harry from his remaining allies and bring more heat.

Marcone likely didn't want more scrutiny or attacks, especially after a large part of his resources would have been drained from the battle. He likely has longer term plans he doesn't want looked at and is probably using Dresden as the distraction. In the end, Harry's life is more violent and will probably end that way. He also likely doesn't want Dresden as an enemy until he is absolutely sure of victory, something which every other villain has underestimated. Marcone won't.

As others pointed out, he also didn't know he would lose his castle...but don't be shocked if he leaves a present or two for Dresden.

Maybe he did....  Or maybe he was the one who showed up and stopped it.

Well I don't think he realized his castle was up for grabs at that point.  It did cost him the Eye but I don't think it had to do with the odds against Harry on his own.  Harry did have the Spear of destiny with him, and it may be on par with or more powerful than one of the Swords.  If Harry had been without it, who knows.  That being said Marcone did say that he had a more longer term perspective.  Perhaps it has to do with Harry the Starborn.  Maybe he knows Harry is going to be needed, or see's him as a tool for later, or that ticking off Mab wasn't worth the trouble.
That's because Marcone keeps his abilities close to the vest, he doesn't boast.  He's had the Coin for years and just now showed his cards because he had to.  He didn't use offensive abilities because they wouldn't have been effective against a Titan, and would have been a waste of time and energy. 

We know that Fallen can throw around Hellfire, a devastating, destructive force.  At the very least Marcone has that.  Also he broke down concrete at the molecular level.  What do you think he could do to a human body? 

"I noted, somewhere in the academic vaults of my head, that magic like that was like unbaking a damned cake back into its original components"  "Ramirez was good.  Better than me, on a technical level, by a considerable margin"  - Harry

"I just broke down the molecular structure of concrete and then chemically re-formed it inside a mold of pure will" - Marcone

One could argue that Marcone not only is capable of what Ramirez did, but by re-forming it is beyond Carlos's abilities.  Carlos broke down the molecular structure, we haven't seen him reform something on that level.  Destroying is easier than creating.

Displayed in some of the short stories, Marcone has been preparing for a showdown with Dresden for many years.  His special bullets were created by Gard (maybe he does them now I don't know).  He had come up with strategies to defeat Harry like using explosives to wear him down, a sprinkler system to dampen his magic, and the special bullets to go through his shield to kill him...  Now he has a Coin, and has shown to be a very capable magic user.  I find it highly unlikely he hasn't been learning offensive magic.  He's shown to be at an expert level with some magic already.  Harry has said that fire magic is easy, and one of the first things a wizard learns.  Marcone  at the very least could probably burn Harry to a crisp.
Agree with pretty much all of this. That being said Harry has one thing Marcone doesn't have...plot power! Jim will make him win because he's the hero after all. Hopefully it is justified well enough to be believable.
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Offline Basil

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2021, 07:59:24 PM »
Harry would loose to Thorned Marcone, pretty badly. 

First, Thorned Marcone is much better at magic than Harry.  I'm not sure what more you'd want to witness from a Wizard beyond teleportation and molecular disintegration and reintegration in seconds. 

Second, Thorned Marcone gets the relative imperviousness from injury that the Coins provide.  While the Winter Mantle is great, if you break Harry's neck, he isn't coming back from that in mere moments.

Third, Harry is actually not very good at magical combat.  I'd liken him to a gigantic (and magical) version of Butterbean.  Butterbean was a huge man, almost 400 pounds at his boxing weight, though not all that tall.  He could dish out punishment and absorb punishment like no one could.  As a result, he won a lot of boxing matches.  But, he was not a very skillful as a "boxer."  He was a puncher and an absolute tank and he'd fought a lot of bouts (about 100).   He relied on those things and got by on them.  While he had a nice career, he was never going to be the champ. 

Similarly, Harry relies on having a bigger battery than almost everyone else.  He runs into trouble, he pushes more energy into the problem. 

Worse, I think, this experience has made Harry delude himself into thinking that he is a magical thug, and little more.  In actuality, he is really good at subtle things and if he'd adjust his outlook he could be a lot better at combat. 

Offline Mira

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2021, 09:35:55 PM »
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Harry would loose to Thorned Marcone, pretty badly. 

At the Aquarium with the help of Soul Fire he didn't do too badly... He has learned a lot since then both about wizard combat and what Soul Fire can do, not to mention the Winter Knight's mantle..

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Second, Thorned Marcone gets the relative imperviousness from injury that the Coins provide.  While the Winter Mantle is great, if you break Harry's neck, he isn't coming back from that in mere moments.

Neither is Marcone, even with a coin.

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Third, Harry is actually not very good at magical combat.  I'd liken him to a gigantic (and magical) version of Butterbean.  Butterbean was a huge man, almost 400 pounds at his boxing weight, though not all that tall.  He could dish out punishment and absorb punishment like no one could.  As a result, he won a lot of boxing matches.  But, he was not a very skillful as a "boxer."  He was a puncher and an absolute tank and he'd fought a lot of bouts (about 100).   He relied on those things and got by on them.  While he had a nice career, he was never going to be the champ.

No? For a guy not good at magical combat he's done pretty well..  It is more like you are describing Ali's "rope-a-dope,"  he took a lot of punishment as well, but he could also float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.  Harry has managed that a few times.
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Similarly, Harry relies on having a bigger battery than almost everyone else.  He runs into trouble, he pushes more energy into the problem.
Well, having a bigger battery and more will than anyone else is a big advantage.. He is learning to pace himself, but that takes time.
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Worse, I think, this experience has made Harry delude himself into thinking that he is a magical thug, and little more.  In actuality, he is really good at subtle things and if he'd adjust his outlook he could be a lot better at combat. 
He was at the beginning, but he isn't that any longer, teaching Molly has helped a lot.. He can do mind duels now and hold his own, that isn't a thuggish thing.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2021, 09:56:40 PM »
At the Aquarium with the help of Soul Fire he didn't do too badly... He has learned a lot since then both about wizard combat and what Soul Fire can do, not to mention the Winter Knight's mantle..
He had literal divine intervention to help him. Not luck exactly, not at that level with those beings involved. But he beat Thorned Namshiel by throwing him into a beam of extremely hot fire. Had he not had the fire to throw Namshiel into...I think things would have been different.

Neither is Marcone, even with a coin.
What are you talking about? Marcone's neck was broken by Ethniu right before he reveals that he is a Denarian now. His head does a 180 back to front. It scares Dresden quite a bit. It literally says word for word that Marcone's neck is broken. So, he does come back from a broken neck. Which contrary to Hollywood and everything doesn't actually always kill people, fyi.


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Offline Mira

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2021, 11:43:20 PM »
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What are you talking about? Marcone's neck was broken by Ethniu right before he reveals that he is a Denarian now. His head does a 180 back to front. It scares Dresden quite a bit. It literally says word for word that Marcone's neck is broken. So, he does come back from a broken neck. Which contrary to Hollywood and everything doesn't actually always kill people, fyi.

I don't remember that scene, however even if is so, Marcone isn't invulnerable.  For one thing Harry still has the Sword of Love in reserve, he says he is no Holy Knight, but if the cause is there, he may find he is one, if only for this eventual confrontation.  Harry has a little invulnerability of his own, the Spear gives him that.  Denarians can be taken down, Harry came very close to doing Nic in a couple of times.  Thorton Namshiel was taken down, that is how Marcone got the coin in the first place.  Yes, Harry has a lot more studying to do before he can take on Namshiel, but he knows his host very well... They did soul gaze once, yes, Marcone frightened him, but Harry also saw his weaknesses was well.. Yes, Marcone saw his, but he also knows it is better to have Harry on his side than his enemy..
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He had literal divine intervention to help him. Not luck exactly, not at that level with those beings involved. But he beat Thorned Namshiel by throwing him into a beam of extremely hot fire. Had he not had the fire to throw Namshiel into...I think things would have been different.

But that's the point isn't it, he had it, that is what Jake was trying to tell him in Small Favor and in Ghost Story... Balance, like the Holy Knights Harry is there to balance the threat of the Fallen. Also Old Thorton was most likely a wizard before he took up the coin, he just got more juice from Namshiel the Fallen Angel..  Marcone may have had some talent, but he is no wizard, as Harry taunted him with the fact.  He still has a lot to learn, so the battle may not be as one sided as you think.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2021, 07:43:36 AM »
I don't remember that scene, however even if is so, Marcone isn't invulnerable.  For one thing Harry still has the Sword of Love in reserve, he says he is no Holy Knight, but if the cause is there, he may find he is one, if only for this eventual confrontation.  Harry has a little invulnerability of his own, the Spear gives him that.  Denarians can be taken down, Harry came very close to doing Nic in a couple of times.  Thorton Namshiel was taken down, that is how Marcone got the coin in the first place.  Yes, Harry has a lot more studying to do before he can take on Namshiel, but he knows his host very well... They did soul gaze once, yes, Marcone frightened him, but Harry also saw his weaknesses was well.. Yes, Marcone saw his, but he also knows it is better to have Harry on his side than his enemy..
But that's the point isn't it, he had it, that is what Jake was trying to tell him in Small Favor and in Ghost Story... Balance, like the Holy Knights Harry is there to balance the threat of the Fallen. Also Old Thorton was most likely a wizard before he took up the coin, he just got more juice from Namshiel the Fallen Angel..  Marcone may have had some talent, but he is no wizard, as Harry taunted him with the fact.  He still has a lot to learn, so the battle may not be as one sided as you think.

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Marcone stabbed at her. A child would have done better against a professional wrestler.
Ethniu’s good arm blurred. She seized him by the throat, lifted him with no noticeable effort, gave her arm a little bob, a little twist, and broke his neck.
I watched Marcone jerk and go limp.
She rose to a knee, her good leg planted in the boiling water, and threw the corpse away like an empty beer can.
The Baron of Chicago landed on the rocks, boneless and broken.
A roar went up from the battlefield behind us.
The blue beam of light rising into the night like a vague, glowing moonbeam, above the embattled forces of the Winter Lady, flickered and dimmed.
Ethniu let out a bubbling, almost disbelieving laugh. Then she prowled like a beast down into the roiling water and slipped beneath it. I could see her reaching out a hand toward the light of the Eye.
I staggered over to Marcone’s body. Broken neck didn’t kill you right away.
Nobody ought to die alone.
And when I got there, he sat up. I fell back with a manly high-pitched scream.
Marcone’s head was twisted way too far around to one side. He rolled his neck as if stretching out. There was series of hideous little pops in his neck and then he shook his head back and forth as if easing a cramp, and his neck just . . . unbroke. Marcone gave me a bland look and held up his knife.
Its blade was covered in blood, too bright red to be real.
I blinked and stared at the knife. Then up at him.
“What the actual fuck?” I asked.
I felt my eyes widen.
Celestial power, they had said, to get through the Titanic bronze.
Or infernal.
Marcone’s eyes wrinkled at the corners in genuine amusement. “Honestly, Dresden. Did you think I’d stop with the title?”

No one is saying Marcone is invulnerable. Just that he could survive a broken neck and Harry could not.

Does the Spear grant invulnerability? So far all we have seen is that it can strike through Titanic Bronze and has enough power to help Harry bind such a being. I am aware that is supposedly grants victory to whoever holds it...but that might just as easily be because it has so much power as simply bending reality and probability to force victory. We haven't seen any evidence yet of the latter.

I don't disagree that Denarians can be taken down and I do believe that in taking up a Coin, Marcone has sealed his own fate (I don't see him repenting any time soon). That being said Marcone was formidable as a mortal already. Now he's had a Coin for the last decade...he's probably a whole lot scarier. I mean he already seemed scarier than in Small Favor even before we knew about Namshiel.

I don't remember Marcone having any weaknesses that Harry saw in the soulgaze. I only remember him being ashamed and furious about the hurting the Beckitt child, and that it drove him. Not sure that's a weakness.

I don't thinks it's established that Marcone isn't a wizard. We haven't seen him do anything but Harry doesn't watch him 24/7 and has never even touched Marcone so he wouldn't have picked up any energies. Marcone may well have had talents, maybe not White Council level, before he took the Coin. Marcone isn't like Harry he would never reveal such a thing. It might even be latent.

Not to mention, that yes while Marcone has a lot to learn - he has Namshiel. Namshiel doesn't have a lot to learn as he already literally knows all there is to know about magic (that an angel can know). He has intellectus. That's huge! We have seen Lash speed up Harry's brain so he can react faster than a normal being, think of what Namshiel could do. Even if Harry is better and more prepared, these are significant advantages. Marcone will get a lot more out of Namshiel than whoever the poor sap was who last was his ride. The fact that Macone goes by Marcone, and not Thorned Namshiel, should tell you a bit. He's on the order of Nicodemus but with magic. He might actually be a worse threat.

I do agree it won't be one-sided. Harry is formidable. Just look at his track record. But Marcone is no pushover (especially now), Harry will have to use every trick he has learned to beat him.
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2021, 09:03:39 AM »
Not to mention, that yes while Marcone has a lot to learn - he has Namshiel. Namshiel doesn't have a lot to learn as he already literally knows all there is to know about magic (that an angel can know). He has intellectus. That's huge! We have seen Lash speed up Harry's brain so he can react faster than a normal being, think of what Namshiel could do. Even if Harry is better and more prepared, these are significant advantages. Marcone will get a lot more out of Namshiel than whoever the poor sap was who last was his ride. The fact that Macone goes by Marcone, and not Thorned Namshiel, should tell you a bit. He's on the order of Nicodemus but with magic. He might actually be a worse threat.

I do agree it won't be one-sided. Harry is formidable. Just look at his track record. But Marcone is no pushover (especially now), Harry will have to use every trick he has learned to beat him.
Pretty sure they lost intellectus when they fell (or at least when they got stuck in coins) much like how they lost their creative capacity, Anduriel's spying ability and Namshiel's research would both look pretty pointless if they instantly had the ability to know whatever they want to know.

And yeah when they do fight, I want it to be an even slugfest that some of Harry's friends don't walk away from because running Illinois means that Marcone should have an awful lot of men with guns on call.
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Offline vincentric

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2021, 05:10:26 PM »
He had literal divine intervention to help him. Not luck exactly, not at that level with those beings involved. But he beat Thorned Namshiel by throwing him into a beam of extremely hot fire. Had he not had the fire to throw Namshiel into...I think things would have been different.
What are you talking about? Marcone's neck was broken by Ethniu right before he reveals that he is a Denarian now. His head does a 180 back to front. It scares Dresden quite a bit. It literally says word for word that Marcone's neck is broken. So, he does come back from a broken neck. Which contrary to Hollywood and everything doesn't actually always kill people, fyi.

A broken neck is not an instantly or even 100% fatal wound. If she had instead popped his head off and threw it into the lake Marcone would be dead and the coin would have just be lying there on his headless corpse.

Offline Mira

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2021, 07:38:11 PM »
A broken neck is not an instantly or even 100% fatal wound. If she had instead popped his head off and threw it into the lake Marcone would be dead and the coin would have just be lying there on his headless corpse.

Yup, that would kind of having the same effect as chopping his head off with a Holy Sword.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2021, 07:03:03 PM »
A broken neck is not an instantly or even 100% fatal wound.
It depends entirely on the damage to the spinal cord.  His head had been turned 180 degrees.  His spinal cord would have been completely severed resulting in an instant death.

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If she had instead popped his head off and threw it into the lake Marcone would be dead and the coin would have just be lying there on his headless corpse.

We don't know this for sure.  When Michael beheaded Thorned, he quickly followed by cutting off his hand, separating the Coin from the body.  Blood on his Soul was smashed to pulp, and somehow survived.  The  Coins display different abilities.  No two are the same.  So if Marcone's head had been removed, and the Coin was still in contact with his torso, who knows what could happen.  His head may grow back, or his body may have gotten up, and reattach the head. 

All we do know is that Marcone sustained an injury that would have resulted in an instant death, and he recovered in moments. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 07:04:39 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline Mira

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2021, 10:41:44 AM »
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All we do know is that Marcone sustained an injury that would have resulted in an instant death, and he recovered in moments. 

But did he really?  The coin has that power, Marcone doesn't.. Remove the coin and what happens to him then?  For all we know, he might now be no more than an animated corpse, remove the coin, and his head falls off.  However it does explain how the Denarian sashquash came back after being squashed to pulp in Hades, he wasn't separated from the coin.. But then both Deidre and Hannah should also be able to come back unless Hades got a hold of their coins.  Or to do in the host of a coin, a Holy Sword is needed to break the connection, other methods are merely set backs.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2021, 07:26:55 PM »
But did he really?  The coin has that power, Marcone doesn't.. Remove the coin and what happens to him then?  For all we know, he might now be no more than an animated corpse, remove the coin, and his head falls off.  However it does explain how the Denarian sashquash came back after being squashed to pulp in Hades, he wasn't separated from the coin..
It's unlikely that Marcone would be an animated corpse.  Then there would no longer be any Choice involved.  No Knight could offer him redemption because he'd just be a dead body.  I don't see why his body would un-heal and fall apart after being repaired.  Not only that but other Coin holders have given up Coin's without aging really quickly, or dying, which should have happened if the only thing sustaining them was a Coin.

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But then both Deidre and Hannah should also be able to come back unless Hades got a hold of their coins.  Or to do in the host of a coin, a Holy Sword is needed to break the connection, other methods are merely set backs.

I wouldn't be shocked if Hannah is running around still.  Diedre gave up her Coin to Nicodemus before he killed her.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline Mira

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Re: Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2021, 09:55:15 PM »
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It's unlikely that Marcone would be an animated corpse.  Then there would no longer be any Choice involved.  No Knight could offer him redemption because he'd just be a dead body.  I don't see why his body would un-heal and fall apart after being repaired.  Not only that but other Coin holders have given up Coin's without aging really quickly, or dying, which should have happened if the only thing sustaining them was a Coin.

That isn't quite true, it depends on how long they'd held the coin.  Cassius, after he gave up his coin aged quite rapidly.  Who knows if Marcone is or isn't?  As far as that goes, Michael didn't offer old Thorny a chance at redemption, never asked the question, just lopped off his head.. What is unusual is he also cut off his hand to get the coin.. That is different from other Denarains who have been killed by the Holy Knights, usually from what I remember if they have to kill them, the coins just leave the body and they collect them.