Was Another Hand At Work at the Party in Grave Peril?

[Mira]

Harry wasn't going to go to that party... But then the screw up and he lost the Sword in a silly attempt to kill Lea with it.  So he and Michael set off to try to recover it at the party..

Which was way complicated by his discovery that Susan had crashed the party, which was an added distraction.  It almost seems like another hand was at work here... Think about it, Harry, knowing it  bode no good for him to go, had no intention of going to that party.  If he hadn't lost the Sword, he never would have gone to the Party with Michael, which set off a whole list of things..  Interesting don't you think that after when all the dust has settled, I think it was Justine, turns up at his place with the returned Sword, totally unharmed.  1] Harry had no intention of going to that party.  Would he have figured out that Susan and stole and forged a copy in time to go and save her?  2] Even if he did find out in time and went, without the Sword being there, there would have been no attempted sacrifice with it, which is what really set things off... 

Susan is a distraction in all of this, the shiny object that we all follow.. But in the order of events at that party, she is of no consequence.  Yeah, I know she gets half turned, her and Harry have sex, little Maggie is the result, which leads to the downfall of the Red Court.. Important, but....

What is important?  Harry panics and makes that silly attempt to kill Lea with Michael's Sword.. It doesn't allow Itself to be misused, but instead of shattering,[as the Sword of Faith did when Murphy misused it,]  if merely falls out of his hands and Lea grabs it... Convenient, don't you think?  Yes, Murphy was an ex-Holy Knight, Harry, just a punk wizard, might have made the difference between shattering and not, but still..  Suddenly Lea has something to present or trade at the party.. Harry and Michael know that has to be prevented so they go to the party.. Events unfold, Lea is presented with the infected Knife, an attempted sacrifice of an innocent with the Sword, which really triggered the chaos.  Important thing to remember without the Sword falling into Lea's hands and going to the party, Harry wouldn't have gone to that party, and would have remained ignorant of a lot of things that become vital that he know for the rest of the series..  What is even more interesting, for all the events that should have shattered or altered it, in the end the Sword is returned to Harry's place and thus to Michael, totally unharmed...  It is almost like the Sword had a mind of it's own, and it does, if one thinks about an angel possessing it..  Another Hand needed for Harry to be at the party, to get vital information for the events to come, and manipulated him..

[Yuillegan]

It was Thomas actually that returns the Sword.

But I'd bet Nemesis influenced events around that party for whatever reason.

Interesting you think Susan is no consequence. There is a fairly strong argument that she is the whole reason the war happens from this point.

As for why Amoracchius didn't break, I think that was more to do with the fact that Jim hadn't yet established a lot of the rules around the Swords etc. In universe I could see a number of reasons such as the fact that it didn't actually strike Lea, or that it didn't draw innocent blood, or the fact that the Sword of Faith broke in an act of treachery and so perhaps only an act of hatred could break the Sword of Love.

But I would say wherever the Swords are concerned, Heaven has an agenda, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were involved in the whole thing.

[TheCuriousFan]

The sword didn't spontaneously explode when Murphy misused it, it dropped from her hands and Nicodemus shattered it on the sidewalk.

[Mira]

The sword didn't spontaneously explode when Murphy misused it, it dropped from her hands and Nicodemus shattered it on the sidewalk.

No, the Sword shattered because Murphy misused it by first judging and then trying to execute Nic with it.  Nic cannot shatter a Holy Sword, if he could he would have done so a long time ago.

Interesting you think Susan is no consequence. There is a fairly strong argument that she is the whole reason the war happens from this point.

I said she is of no consequence as far as the order of events go, she is the shinny object, she isn't the reason the war starts.  Odd don't you think that Michael be distracted by the very pregnant Charity that he loses his Sword for a moment?  Harry picks it up, and Lea happens to show up, Harry panics and tries to kill her with it... It just falls out of his hands, not allowing itself to be misused you understand.  Lea picks it up and Harry and Michael both know she is taking it to the party, so they have to go and try and get it back.  If that hadn't happened, Harry might never have gone simply because he may not have noticed that the invitation had been stolen, because apparently Susan did put it back, Harry used it to go.  At the party a lot of stuff happens or seems to around Lea, Susan, Harry, Michael, and Mavra, but actually not much at all is happening, trading of insults, taking away of memories maybe, but nothing to violate the rules of Hospitality, which supposedly would set off a war.  Nothing of consequence happens until Mavra and Bianca were about to sacrifice an innocent with the Holy Sword, which would totally unmake it.. That is when Harry and Michael move forward to act, Susan had nothing to do with that.  Yet after all of that, the Sword is unharmed, what is more, ends up in the hands of Michael once more.. 

What confirms all of this is what Shiro tells Harry in Death Masks, that his actions while perhaps starting the war, forced the hand of the Red Court before they were ready to strike.. Giving the White Council a better chance to defeat them in the end... Susan had nothing to do with any of that, another Hand was at work.

[TheCuriousFan]

No, the Sword shattered because Murphy misused it by first judging and then trying to execute Nic with it.  Nic cannot shatter a Holy Sword, if he could he would have done so a long time ago.

Her hips and shoulders twisted, to deliver the lethal slash.

The light of the blade died away as abruptly as that of an unplugged lamp. The thrum of power that resonated through the very air vanished.

Nicodemus rolled, moving like a snake, anticipating her perfectly and flowing away from the Sword with a sinuous motion of spine and shoulder. Karrin was thrown slightly off-balance by the lack of resistance, and his hands swept up and seized her wrists.

The pair of them struggled for a second, and then Fidelacchius swept up high, over Karrin’s head. Her expression whitened in horror as she saw the Sword, now gleaming with nothing more than ordinary light.

Then, guided by Nicodemus’s hands, the ancient Sword came smashing down onto the concrete of the sidewalk, the flat of the blade striking the frozen stone.

It shattered with a rising shriek of protesting metal, shards flickering in the streetlights. Pieces of the blade went spinning in every direction, sparkling reflected light through the darkness. Karrin stared at it with unbelieving eyes.

Like with Harry the sword was left depowered after misuse and Nicodemus took the opportunity to shatter it since it was back to being a lump of metal.

[Mira]

Like with Harry the sword was left depowered after misuse and Nicodemus took the opportunity to shatter it since it was back to being a lump of metal.

He didn't shatter it, it shattered when it hit the frozen sidewalk, but you're right as soon as Murphy proclaimed her judgement, "damn you," and swung to kill him, the light went out of it, then Nic could guide her hands and it to the frozen sidewalk to shatter it.. If Murphy hadn't misused it that wouldn't have happened.  However that didn't happen in Harry's case..

Flash of light and a jolt of pain that lanced up through my hands and arms.  The blade twisted in my gasp, fell out of it and spun to the ground.

The Sword of Faith, just shattered and didn't reactivate until the hilt touched the hands of Butters. 
Where as Amoracchius chimed an angry sound as soon as Mavra touched it.  Then Thomas says to
Harry,

"Dresden," he hissed.  "Dresden don't be a fool.  It is only one life--one girl's life and a sword balanced against all of us.  If you act now, you condemn us all."

It never was about Susan, it was about stopping the sacrifice of an innocent and the unmaking of a Holy Sword.

[Yuillegan]

Like with Harry the sword was left depowered after misuse and Nicodemus took the opportunity to shatter it since it was back to being a lump of metal.

Agreed. The Sword wouldn't have shattered if Nicodemus hadn't smashed it into the sidewalk. The Sword which normally was protected was made vulnerable by Murphy's actions, which meant that Nick had the opportunity to destroy it which he achieved temporarily.

No, the Sword shattered because Murphy misused it by first judging and then trying to execute Nic with it.  Nic cannot shatter a Holy Sword, if he could he would have done so a long time ago.

See above. Also who's to say he hasn't done that before? He has been around 2000 years since the Swords were first around and he does destroy records of himself and his deeds regularly. Nicodemus destroying the Sword is like stabbing someone without armour. Whilst the armour is on it's much harder to do (perhaps impossible in the case of the Swords). Once the armour is removed or corrupted the person underneath is vulnerable. Just like Amoracchius was.

I said she is of no consequence as far as the order of events go, she is the shinny object, she isn't the reason the war starts.  Odd don't you think that Michael be distracted by the very pregnant Charity that he loses his Sword for a moment?  Harry picks it up, and Lea happens to show up, Harry panics and tries to kill her with it... It just falls out of his hands, not allowing itself to be misused you understand.  Lea picks it up and Harry and Michael both know she is taking it to the party, so they have to go and try and get it back.  If that hadn't happened, Harry might never have gone simply because he may not have noticed that the invitation had been stolen, because apparently Susan did put it back, Harry used it to go.  At the party a lot of stuff happens or seems to around Lea, Susan, Harry, Michael, and Mavra, but actually not much at all is happening, trading of insults, taking away of memories maybe, but nothing to violate the rules of Hospitality, which supposedly would set off a war.  Nothing of consequence happens until Mavra and Bianca were about to sacrifice an innocent with the Holy Sword, which would totally unmake it.. That is when Harry and Michael move forward to act, Susan had nothing to do with that.  Yet after all of that, the Sword is unharmed, what is more, ends up in the hands of Michael once more.. 

What confirms all of this is what Shiro tells Harry in Death Masks, that his actions while perhaps starting the war, forced the hand of the Red Court before they were ready to strike.. Giving the White Council a better chance to defeat them in the end... Susan had nothing to do with any of that, another Hand was at work.

He didn't shatter it, it shattered when it hit the frozen sidewalk, but you're right as soon as Murphy proclaimed her judgement, "damn you," and swung to kill him, the light went out of it, then Nic could guide her hands and it to the frozen sidewalk to shatter it.. If Murphy hadn't misused it that wouldn't have happened.  However that didn't happen in Harry's case..
The Sword of Faith, just shattered and didn't reactivate until the hilt touched the hands of Butters. 
Where as Amoracchius chimed an angry sound as soon as Mavra touched it. 
Then Thomas says to Harry, ...
It never was about Susan, it was about stopping the sacrifice of an innocent and the unmaking of a Holy Sword.

I think we're talking about slightly different things. This is my bad, I can see you're focussed on the events of the party whereas I was talking about Susan's importance in relation to the war with the Vampires.

Is the premise of what you're saying that Heaven manipulated events so that Harry would attend that party?

But she is the reason the war starts. Harry starts the war because he loves Susan. Harry isn't prepared to leave her to the monsters. It's a pivotal moment; Harry is most himself in moments like that - wearing ducky boxer shorts and preparing to die fighting the monsters to save an innocent. Susan isn't the reason for the war altogether, just the reason it commences from there. The reason for the war was that those behind the scenes wanted to remove the White Council etc. Not to mention all the superficial reasons the Red Court and other Vampire Courts wanted a war.

Also, I think Mavra's reaction to the Sword, and the Sword's reaction to Mavra are further hints of the Black Court being connected to the Outsiders.

[Mira]

Is the premise of what you're saying that Heaven manipulated events so that Harry would attend that party?

But she is the reason the war starts. Harry starts the war because he loves Susan. Harry isn't prepared to leave her to the monsters. It's a pivotal moment; Harry is most himself in moments like that - wearing ducky boxer shorts and preparing to die fighting the monsters to save an innocent. Susan isn't the reason for the war altogether, just the reason it commences from there. The reason for the war was that those behind the scenes wanted to remove the White Council etc. Not to mention all the superficial reasons the Red Court and other Vampire Courts wanted a war.

Yup, Harry was manipulated to go to that party... Not to save Susan, he had no idea she had stolen and forged that invitation. 

No, Susan is not the reason for the war..  The Senior Council wouldn't give a damn whether one more human was turned or half turned..  Yes, Harry went to save Susan from Bianca, but the events were already in motion, hospitality rules already broken, that is why Thomas says to Harry as he and Michael go into action to try and stop the sacrifice and the Sword at the party.

See above. Also who's to say he hasn't done that before? He has been around 2000 years since the Swords were first around and he does destroy records of himself and his deeds regularly. Nicodemus destroying the Sword is like stabbing someone without armour. Whilst the armour is on it's much harder to do (perhaps impossible in the case of the Swords). Once the armour is removed or corrupted the person underneath is vulnerable. Just like Amoracchius was.

The deliberate murder of an innocent is not the same as you describe.. The word used was unmaking not breaking... The latter can be put back together again as the Sword of Faith was, I don't think the Sword of Love could have been.

I think we're talking about slightly different things. This is my bad, I can see you're focussed on the events of the party whereas I was talking about Susan's importance in relation to the war with the Vampires.

And I said she was important in that, but not at the party..  And if she hadn't had a child with Harry that the vamps were going to sacrifice to kill all of Harry's family, she wouldn't have been all that important.  She became critical to the war when she willingly turned and sacrificed herself as the youngest vamp when Harry reversed the Red King's spell.

Also, I think Mavra's reaction to the Sword, and the Sword's reaction to Mavra are further hints of the Black Court being connected to the Outsiders.

My point, Harry would never have learned of that important fact if he hadn't gone to the party with Michael to rescue the Sword.  And without the Sword being in her hand to murder and innocent, that very important detail would not have come out.

[groinkick]

I believe that Leah was told of Morgana's blade in advance.  She was made aware of it, but a trade needed to happen.  So she made sure she got something of equal value to trade, the Sword.  I believe someone, or someone's very cleverly manipulated her...  This manipulation (along with other events) seems so well done, and so many random factors needed to play out in their favor, I doubt it was mortal players behind it....  Just as the White Council and the Inside have allies like Uriel, Odin, Mab ect, I believe the Black Council and the Outside have players like the Fallen, Nemesis Drakul ect behind them.

I'm not even sure that the Inside team, and the Outside team are really on each others team either...  Drakul could be against the Outside while also working with them just as Uriel might not really be allied with Mab but is working with her.

It's like 3D Chess where there are temporary allies, and enemies who are all moving their pieces into position for their own ends.  For example the Red Court may have been working with Cowl, but not realized that the Blade was Nemfected.  Or that Mavra may have been there helping Bianca get her revenge, but she was doing it on Drakul's behalf to help start a war between the Red Court and the White Council, and to also destroy a Sword for her own revenge but also for a Fallen she'd been working with.

[Mira]

I believe that Leah was told of Morgana's blade in advance.  She was made aware of it, but a trade needed to happen.  So she made sure she got something of equal value to trade, the Sword.  I believe someone, or someone's very cleverly manipulated her...  This manipulation (along with other events) seems so well done, and so many random factors needed to play out in their favor, I doubt it was mortal players behind it....  Just as the White Council and the Inside have allies like Uriel, Odin, Mab ect, I believe the Black Council and the Outside have players like the Fallen, Nemesis Drakul ect behind them.

I'm not even sure that the Inside team, and the Outside team are really on each others team either...  Drakul could be against the Outside while also working with them just as Uriel might not really be allied with Mab but is working with her.

It's like 3D Chess where there are temporary allies, and enemies who are all moving their pieces into position for their own ends.  For example the Red Court may have been working with Cowl, but not realized that the Blade was Nemfected.  Or that Mavra may have been there helping Bianca get her revenge, but she was doing it on Drakul's behalf to help start a war between the Red Court and the White Council, and to also destroy a Sword for her own revenge but also for a Fallen she'd been working with.

  Total manipulation, Lea was manipulated by Bianca and Mavra because they perceived her desire it not to replace Mab outright, to be so powerful she just as good as done.  I wrote a thread years ago, that I wondered if Lea was infested in the first place.  Heaven manipulated things on the other end, it needed Harry at that party, because there was important information to be had there that he needed to know.  And as Shiro pointed out to Harry, he might be blamed for the war starting by his actions, but the Reds were starting the war prematurely as a result, so advantage White Council.

[groinkick]

  Total manipulation, Lea was manipulated by Bianca and Mavra because they perceived her desire it not to replace Mab outright, to be so powerful she just as good as done.  I wrote a thread years ago, that I wondered if Lea was infested in the first place.  Heaven manipulated things on the other end, it needed Harry at that party, because there was important information to be had there that he needed to know.  And as Shiro pointed out to Harry, he might be blamed for the war starting by his actions, but the Reds were starting the war prematurely as a result, so advantage White Council.

I don't think the Dagger was enough to do anything to Mab...  However it could have gained her quite a big favor..  Mavra and Bianca may have used her, but did the know of Nemesis?  I don't believe so.  I think they themselves were manipulated as well...

That dagger is on par with one of the Swords...  Really wondering just what it can do.

[Mira]

I don't think the Dagger was enough to do anything to Mab...  However it could have gained her quite a big favor..  Mavra and Bianca may have used her, but did the know of Nemesis?  I don't believe so.  I think they themselves were manipulated as well...

That dagger is on par with one of the Swords...  Really wondering just what it can do.

The Dagger itself? No, but Lea thought it could gain her more power to perhaps even to overthrow Mab.  The last reread I did of the early books when we first met Lea that was the impression I got of her.  I even wrote a thread at the time wondering if she was already infested.  She knew that Maeve wasn't up to taking over for her mother, so she'd do away with both.  However Lea isn't stupid, she knew she couldn't take Mab on, one on one, but the Dagger could give her the edge she needed.

I don't think Bianca knew anything, she was power hungry and not overly bright, so this made her the perfect dupe for Mavra, and whomever she is working for.  Oh I think Mavra was aware that the Dagger was infested, she may have arranged that, I also think Cowl was aware... It all makes sense when you think the Outsiders/Nemesis knows to invade this world on any scale the first thing they have to get past is Mab and the Winter Court.  They played Lea towards that aim, to Mab's credit, she knows Lea's strengths and her importance to the Court, so instead of killing her outright, attempted a cure.  Yes, the Dagger and the Sword seem on par, but are they really?  I mean do you think anyone could infest a Holy Sword?