"It is not yet your hour."

[Arjan]

Carlos could have lied.

[forumghost]

Carlos could have lied.

That's a fair point, especially when he showed up to force Harry onto the Security team and yet never thought to mention how the Merlin is trying to kick him out literally right now.

Like, Carlos shows up to force Harry to stay in the city, and then Eb shows up to try and warn Harry to go to Edinburgh.

Kinda seems like maybe Carlos was working with the Merlin to get Harry kicked.

[Mira]

That's a fair point, especially when he showed up to force Harry onto the Security team and yet never thought to mention how the Merlin is trying to kick him out literally right now.

And basically sets him up with a tracking device, let's not forget that one.  No, Carlos was not on Harry's side from the moment we first meet him in chapter one of Peace Talks.

[Snark Knight]

Basically that is what Langtry tried to pull in Proven Guilty, when he wanted Molly convicted, claiming he had proxies for the Senior Members missing, when he never even consulted them on how they wanted to vote.

Sure, but it's one thing to make a personal call against a random teenage warlock. Taking advantage like that to expel a member who's still popular with slightly less than half of the rest of the Council is quite another. It's borrowing a lot of political trouble for another day.

Langtry has enough political acumen to have a pretty good idea if he's got the votes among the general membership to kick Harry before the voting even opens. Letting it be decided by the open membership gives him more cover against 40-odd percent of the membership thinking he personally railroaded someone they regard well.

[Mira]

Sure, but it's one thing to make a personal call against a random teenage warlock. Taking advantage like that to expel a member who's still popular with slightly less than half of the rest of the Council is quite another. It's borrowing a lot of political trouble for another day.

Langtry has enough political acumen to have a pretty good idea if he's got the votes among the general membership to kick Harry before the voting even opens. Letting it be decided by the open membership gives him more cover against 40-odd percent of the membership thinking he personally railroaded someone they regard well.

Yes, that is why the death sentence was changed to banishment, everyone knew very well as did Carlos that the Turtlenecks weren't exactly human.  They also know it was a real war being fought, not a time for being picky as far as the First Law goes.  I imagine if one looked close enough none of the wizards who were there were completely innocent of that violation.  It comes down to Harry being able to command his own army, even if they are pixies, and having control over Demonreach, it scares the holy hell out of them. 

[Bad Alias]

I feel like Langtry being the bad guy is the red herring of the series...

I wouldn't be shocked if Langtry, incognito, shows up on Harry's door and presents a totally different picture from what Carlos told Harry.

I desperately want Langtry to have orchestrated kicking Harry out of the Council so as to have someone outside of the Council to investigate the Black Council.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense or seem too likely; I just really like the idea.

I don't know if these are Jim's personal views or not but Harry definitely has a bit of a libertarian vibe. Not that I am saying that's a bad thing or a good thing, just the read I got from what Harry says about such things from time to time.

That's kind of how Marcone is portrayed too. Basically all the crime we read about Marcone's organization doing is just business between mutually consenting adults. Even his protection racket is mostly portrayed that way in recent books. The people paying protection are protected from the Fomor. (Normally protection rackets are protection from the person the victim is paying).

We know from Proven Guilty that Merlin holds ALL their proxies.

I suppose Langtry could have pulled rank to move if from an open council vote to Senior only based on the rule Eb used in SK that any senior councilor can move a vote from open to senior council only.

That takes three votes (and maybe the presence of a quorum. I don't have the book available to look it up right now). That was the problem Eb introduced in the beginning of PT. Were there three votes after the Battle of Chicago? As Mira points out, Carlos does say that the Senior Council voted. Is there an emergency vote provision we don't know about? Was the vote expelling Harry illegal?

what do you think will cause Harry to take a direct stand again the White Council?

My money is it's going to be Harry calling them on their BS. I'm sure what form their BS is going to take. Something like Molly's hearing in PG. Maybe the Council will have become too corrupt.

[Mira]

That takes three votes (and maybe the presence of a quorum. I don't have the book available to look it up right now). That was the problem Eb introduced in the beginning of PT. Were there three votes after the Battle of Chicago? As Mira points out, Carlos does say that the Senior Council voted. Is there an emergency vote provision we don't know about? Was the vote expelling Harry illegal?

The way I read the quote that I provided was the Senior Council called an "emergency" meeting after the Battle of Chicago.  Who would have the power?  The Merlin.  With three of the Senior members indisposed, how can that be a fair trial or a legal vote?  And can anyone explain in the light of that, that it was "unanimous?" As I said, the Merlin tried to pull that off when Molly was tried, he claimed to have the proxies of the missing members.. But when they came back they didn't exactly vote the way that Langtry claimed in their behalf.  So did that happen again?  My guess is yes it did.  However I think even Langtry realized that a death sentence crossed the line, so they changed it to banishment and loss of wizard status..  Which brings up another question, how do unwizard a fully trained wizard? He might be kicked out of the club, but Harry is still every bit the wizard he was before.

[Arjan]

The way I read the quote that I provided was the Senior Council called an "emergency" meeting after the Battle of Chicago.  Who would have the power?  The Merlin.  With three of the Senior members indisposed, how can that be a fair trial or a legal vote?  And can anyone explain in the light of that, that it was "unanimous?" As I said, the Merlin tried to pull that off when Molly was tried, he claimed to have the proxies of the missing members.. But when they came back they didn't exactly vote the way that Langtry claimed in their behalf.  So did that happen again?  My guess is yes it did.  However I think even Langtry realized that a death sentence crossed the line, so they changed it to banishment and loss of wizard status..  Which brings up another question, how do unwizard a fully trained wizard? He might be kicked out of the club, but Harry is still every bit the wizard he was before.

Mab is fine with the current situation because it basically releases Harry of all his obligations to the white council. An official death sentence however is something I do not think she can ignore. I think that is an attack on her household.

And Molly would not ignore it either.

[Mira]

Mab is fine with the current situation because it basically releases Harry of all his obligations to the white council. An official death sentence however is something I do not think she can ignore. I think that is an attack on her household.

And Molly would not ignore it either.

I don't think Langtry was so worried about Mab as things are getting very complicated and he feels like he is losing control. 

[forumghost]

Does giving Dresden the boot really help with that though?

I mean, Harry was already under a suspended death sentence technically (since the doom was never lifted due to Molly not having a 'proper' graduation).

So it kinda seems like the only thing that the White Council get from this is they lose what little bit of influence they have over Harry, in exchange gain... pissing off Eb?

[Mira]

Does giving Dresden the boot really help with that though?

If you are addressing that question to me, my thought is Langtry feels threatened by Harry.  It isn't about power or knowledge, Langtry still has more juice and knowledge of magic than Harry, but Harry is out in the world where as he isn't.  Harry has acquired a rep and allies, heck, his own army, small but mighty.  When the flying squid things were attacking there were three if I remember correctly Senior Council members present, they couldn't do squat against them.  Harry called up Za'Gard and they took care of it.  It is called influence, Harry has a ton of it, that scares them.

No, the Doom was never lifted from Molly, technically Harry was dead or thought to be when she was under her death sentence.  I think that became moot once she became Winter Lady, and as far as I know she hasn't acted all warlocky since she became Winter Lady.