"It is not yet your hour."

[Mira]

The expulsion was by majority vote, not just SC. Though my read on it is she was the most likely to have reported him killing the turtlenecks to trigger the death sentence by SC vote, but probably also the primary mover for getting it suspended instead of passed. I think you're right - she's rattled and wants a tighter leash on him.

Majority?  Really? Four of the Senior members were either in surgery or still off defending the Outer Gates..  The Merlin had to have known that smelled too much of a "kangaroo court," even for him, so they switched it to expulsion, also knowing that like the proverbial bad penny, Harry will turn up again, then with clear consciences they can order his death..

[Arjan]

Majority?  Really? Four of the Senior members were either in surgery or still off defending the Outer Gates..  The Merlin had to have known that smelled too much of a "kangaroo court," even for him, so they switched it to expulsion, also knowing that like the proverbial bad penny, Harry will turn up again, then with clear consciences they can order his death..

They did not dare to actually kill Harry because they are afraid of Mab.

[Snark Knight]

Majority?  Really? Four of the Senior members were either in surgery or still off defending the Outer Gates..

No, majority of the open council membership. The expulsion vote came first and was open to all members. That's why Ebenezar was advising in PT that Harry should go to Edinburgh and shake some hands with the other members to reassure them before they voted on him, before everything went pear-shaped.

According to Carlos, it was the suspended capital sentence for roasting turtlenecks that the Merlin decided behind closed doors with Ancient Mai (and, I assume, Martha Liberty). That came after the expulsion vote passed.

[BrainFireBob]

The expulsion was by majority vote, not just SC. Though my read on it is she was the most likely to have reported him killing the turtlenecks to trigger the death sentence by SC vote, but probably also the primary mover for getting it suspended instead of passed. I think you're right - she's rattled and wants a tighter leash on him.

The whole Harry-just-deputized-Toot-rather-than-trying-to-understand-what-he-was-doing vis-a-vis the Za Lord is one of the plots I find most interesting.

I'm now banking on Martha being the one to spill the beans. Crossing my fingers he's becoming an immortal Fae Lord with no clue as to the fact.

[The_Sibelis]

The whole Harry-just-deputized-Toot-rather-than-trying-to-understand-what-he-was-doing vis-a-vis the Za Lord is one of the plots I find most interesting.

I'm now banking on Martha being the one to spill the beans. Crossing my fingers he's becoming an immortal Fae Lord with no clue as to the fact.

Martha spilling which beans? Meaning she's actually on Harry's side? That'd make sense in an offbeat way. She's seemed to stay the farthest from him of his erstwhile allies in the council. Could be she's trying to lay low because she knows something is after Harry's allies. Hard to stab someone in the back from a distance. I more expect a traitor we trust.

On the immortal fae being line. Jogged an idea, immortals gain power from mortal belief yes? Could it work, in a slightly different way, in reverse? Harry's gaining faeness from being worshipped as a semi deity by the Za guard? This combined with known feats/challenges conquered equates some sort of immortal status? As example, let's look at a mash up of classic Hercules show and Disney's. You could say doing the 12 labors gained him the recognition amongst the gods to grant him status perhaps?
Idk, just thinking there might be something to immortal peerage acceptance/worship.

[forumghost]

Martha spilling which beans? Meaning she's actually on Harry's side? That'd make sense in an offbeat way. She's seemed to stay the farthest from him of his erstwhile allies in the council. Could be she's trying to lay low because she knows something is after Harry's allies. Hard to stab someone in the back from a distance. I more expect a traitor we trust.

On the immortal fae being line. Jogged an idea, immortals gain power from mortal belief yes? Could it work, in a slightly different way, in reverse? Harry's gaining faeness from being worshipped as a semi deity by the Za guard? This combined with known feats/challenges conquered equates some sort of immortal status? As example, let's look at a mash up of classic Hercules show and Disney's. You could say doing the 12 labors gained him the recognition amongst the gods to grant him status perhaps?
Idk, just thinking there might be something to immortal peerage acceptance/worship.

While Harry waking up one day to find out that he's the Faerie Queen of Pizza would be great for a laugh, I think the Series is going down a more serious path then that.

[Mira]

No, majority of the open council membership. The expulsion vote came first and was open to all members. That's why Ebenezar was advising in PT that Harry should go to Edinburgh and shake some hands with the other members to reassure them before they voted on him, before everything went pear-shaped.

I don't think it is as open as you think, I think Eb meant with other Senior Members.  The reason I think that is back in Summer Knight when they tried to demote Harry back to apprentice, only the Senior Members actually voted.. The rest of the members just witnessed it.. Molly's trial, again only the Senior Members got to vote, remember Langtry claimed to have a proxy for all of them.  Also if everyone got a vote, don't you think Harry would have asked Carlos how he voted? 

[TheCuriousFan]

I don't think it is as open as you think, I think Eb meant with other Senior Members.  The reason I think that is back in Summer Knight when they tried to demote Harry back to apprentice, only the Senior Members actually voted.. The rest of the members just witnessed it.. Molly's trial, again only the Senior Members got to vote, remember Langtry claimed to have a proxy for all of them.  Also if everyone got a vote, don't you think Harry would have asked Carlos how he voted?

The SK vote had to be forced to be a senior council vote by Eb to save Harry's bacon. As for the PT vote, Carlos did get a vote, he tells Harry that he voted to keep Harry in the White Council as they head into one of the meetings.

[Mira]

The SK vote had to be forced to be a senior council vote by Eb to save Harry's bacon. As for the PT vote, Carlos did get a vote, he tells Harry that he voted to keep Harry in the White Council as they head into one of the meetings.

 That is my point, it is the Senior Council that votes.  In Battle Ground Harry doesn't go to any meetings.

[TheCuriousFan]

That is my point, it is the Senior Council that votes.  In Battle Ground Harry doesn't go to any meetings.

Because he was at Chicago, but that doesn't change that there was a meeting for Battle Ground. Harry got smashed in the general vote and then in the senior council vote.

[Mira]

Because he was at Chicago, but that doesn't change that there was a meeting for Battle Ground. Harry got smashed in the general vote and then in the senior council vote.

 But Harry didn't go to it, the meeting happened right after, Eb and LTW were still in surgery.. I don't think on this type of thing there is a general vote, if there were, there would have been back in Summer Knight.

Here is the the quote from Battle Ground page 372

"The Senior Council voted in emergency session, while Listens-to-Winds and McCoy were in surgery."

Carlos mentions "witnesses" that Harry killed human servants of the Fomor..  Harry argues back that Carlos knows perfectly well that they are not exactly human..

Carlos answers;

"Doesn't matter what I think," Ramirez said.  "You know how broadly they interpret the First Law."

It didn't matter what Carlos thought because he doesn't get a vote in the matter.. It is about how "they" meaning the Senior Council interprets the law, and the vote was unanimous, that is, with at least three members not present.  You might call it pay back from Langtry as well, with his "proxy" votes he attempted to convict Molly as well, except Harry stopped him.. In the case Carlos either wouldn't or couldn't, and had started down the road before when he put the tracker on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks.

[The_Sibelis]

While Harry waking up one day to find out that he's the Faerie Queen of Pizza would be great for a laugh, I think the Series is going down a more serious path then that.

I'd vehemently disagree. Harry has long been set up as the "Burger King" on purpose. Jim's not going to forgo humor. Not with incredible puns like the Black Hat waiting in the winds.

[TheCuriousFan]

But Harry didn't go to it, the meeting happened right after, Eb and LTW were still in surgery.. I don't think on this type of thing there is a general vote, if there were, there would have been back in Summer Knight.

Here is the the quote from Battle Ground page 372

Carlos mentions "witnesses" that Harry killed human servants of the Fomor..  Harry argues back that Carlos knows perfectly well that they are not exactly human..

Carlos answers;
It didn't matter what Carlos thought because he doesn't get a vote in the matter.. It is about how "they" meaning the Senior Council interprets the law, and the vote was unanimous, that is, with at least three members not present.  You might call it pay back from Langtry as well, with his "proxy" votes he attempted to convict Molly as well, except Harry stopped him.. In the case Carlos either wouldn't or couldn't, and had started down the road before when he put the tracker on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks.

There were two separate votes, the first was the public one of whether to kick Harry out or not where Ramirez voted in Harry's favour.

His lips pressed into a line. “Yeah.” He gave his head a little shake, as if dislodging an insect. “I heard about the vote in the Council, man. It’s bullshit. However inconvenient you might be for them, whether any of them like it or not, you’re a wizard, Harry.”

“Yer a wizard, Harry,” I growled.

He didn’t smile, but an amused glint came to his eyes. “Point is, I’ve already cast my vote on your behalf. So have most of the other Wardens.”

I was quiet for a second, with my throat a little tight. “Oh. Thanks.”

“Yeah, well. We’re just the guys who have to do the fighting and the dirty work,” he said bitterly. “All the wizards who sit on their fat asses all day, who knows? To them, you’re scary.”

Then there was the second vote with the senior council about what to do with him afterwards that you quoted.

[Snark Knight]

I don't think it is as open as you think, I think Eb meant with other Senior Members.  The reason I think that is back in Summer Knight when they tried to demote Harry back to apprentice, only the Senior Members actually voted.. The rest of the members just witnessed it.. Molly's trial, again only the Senior Members got to vote, remember Langtry claimed to have a proxy for all of them.  Also if everyone got a vote, don't you think Harry would have asked Carlos how he voted?

Carlos said on the way into the summit that he'd voted in Harry's favour, though.

I suppose Langtry could have pulled rank to move if from an open council vote to Senior only based on the rule Eb used in SK that any senior councilor can move a vote from open to senior council only, but but there's nothing in Carlos' accounting of how it went to indicate that happened. It would have been poor politics on his part to have an expulsion vote decided only by himself and Ancient Mai.

[Mira]

Carlos said on the way into the summit that he'd voted in Harry's favour, though.

I suppose Langtry could have pulled rank to move if from an open council vote to Senior only based on the rule Eb used in SK that any senior councilor can move a vote from open to senior council only, but but there's nothing in Carlos' accounting of how it went to indicate that happened. It would have been poor politics on his part to have an expulsion vote decided only by himself and Ancient Mai.

Basically that is what Langtry tried to pull in Proven Guilty, when he wanted Molly convicted, claiming he had proxies for the Senior Members missing, when he never even consulted them on how they wanted to vote.  Harry stopped him then, with some help of Rashid, Harry said then that he pissed Langtry off and that he'd make him pay someday...  So Carlos said the vote was "unanimous."  You really think Langtry got instructions from the three missing members on how they wanted their votes cast? 

"The Senior Council voted in emergency session, while Listens-to-Winds and McCoy were in surgery."

Not the whole Council, the Senior Council..  Also Langtry was trying for a death sentence, it is just the Senior Council that apparently votes on that as we saw in Molly's case.