"It is not yet your hour."

[Griffyn612]

My guess is Cristos corrupts the Council, and they decide to dig a hole and hide. Any wizard overtly getting involved is in big trouble. They'll leave humanity and the lesser talents to fend for themselves while maintaining the secrecy of their existence.

And Harry will rebel against that to help protect humans and lesser talents, and push for a group with wider representation and less secrecy. Something listed in the phone book, even.

[Yuillegan]

Cristos? I know he's a bit of a politician but he did get involved in the Battle of Chicago. Not exactly non-interventionist policy.

Also, not sure we can take this as confirmation - but when asked about what the Black Council were doing in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, Jim responded that the Black Council was very busy not getting squashed by Ethniu. Which could well imply that any of those who were at the Battle were not in fact Black Council. It's not hard evidence, but it's something.

But the rest of the theory seems solid. Seems more like a Arthur Langtry-style play.

[Griffyn612]

Cristos? I know he's a bit of a politician but he did get involved in the Battle of Chicago. Not exactly non-interventionist policy.

Also, not sure we can take this as confirmation - but when asked about what the Black Council were doing in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, Jim responded that the Black Council was very busy not getting squashed by Ethniu. Which could well imply that any of those who were at the Battle were not in fact Black Council. It's not hard evidence, but it's something.

But the rest of the theory seems solid. Seems more like a Arthur Langtry-style play.

I feel like Langtry being the bad guy is the red herring of the series, and Cristos is the overt bad guy who's so obvious that his importance and relevance is underestimated by everyone.

But then again, I'm in the "Cristos is Cowl" camp, so...

As for the quote, I'd say Cristos did what he could to not get squashed. Maybe not as successful as he'd hoped, but... 

[Yuillegan]

I know what you mean. But Langtry being defensive doesn't necessarily make him evil, just a bastard. Which I think is probably accurate. I am pretty certain when he dies later in the series (which is almost guaranteed to happen) it will be doing some awesome act to try and protect humanity. He's a bit like Morgan. He looks pretty bad through Harry's eyes. But he is actually trying to protect the mortals the best way he knows how. But I do think he's a bit like Fudge from Harry Potter. He's determined to do things his way until it's too late, and that will cost the world something. But he has his reasons. Not evil, just happens to be taking the wrong path.

Cristos is more complicated than I expected. At first he seems warlike and is called "unpleasant" by Ebenezar, and seems like a serious threat as he deals with a powerful supernatural threat. But when we next seem him he seems more like a greasy, perhaps corrupt perhaps just incompetent, politician. Next we seem him he ends up being friendly with Ebenezar and contributes reasonably to the Battle of Chicago. He mostly just seems like a bit of a fool.

Still, it could all be an act. Perhaps he is more dangerous than we realise. Perhaps he is more malevolent than he appears. But Cristos fought when he could have just disappeared though, or even joined the other team. Hell of an act in my opinion.

If I were to pick someone who is the "obvious" villain choice for Cowl, I would pick Marcone. The only problem with that is that Cowl and Marcone were both at the Raith Deeps.

A far more terrifying background person in the background would be someone like Lord Raith, or Nicodemus. Someone who has taken great pains to hide their magic (if they were Cowl). Both are poor fits though as both don't seem to care to be in the background that much. They're pretty scary anyway (by and large, excusing Lord Raith's present situation and Nicodemus' recent defeats). And Lord Raith was also at the Deeps at the same time Cowl was.

For this reason it's why I think it's someone we haven't met, like Simon or Kemmler (yes he was in that short story but Harry hasn't met him) or Justin (only seen in flashbacks, not actually a part of the series from what we've seen). It could even be one of the Librarians, which would make a bit of sense considering they would be preparing to fight wizards. Father Forthill is also an interesting candidate as he fits a few patterns, but I would have thought Harry would have sensed his magical aura by now. I'll eat my hat if it was Ebenezar. That would make no sense. Alt-universe/TT Harry/Id Harry would make some sense...but Cowl calls Dresden a child. Possible if that Harry was much older than the one he encountered in Dead Beat. But seems a stretch. LtW doesn't make sense, nor does pretty much any other wizard. So I am still leaning on an unmet as yet wizard character. But I doubt we will know until a lot later in the series.

[The_Sibelis]

See, I figure Cristo is just an idiot, and PT/BG reinforced that idea to me. Idk he just seems suck up and too into posturing. He's just in the 'game' of politics. I've always thought Langtry was the other traitor. For various reasons, the look he gave Peabody when Harry outted him being the most prominent. That shark look, idk. It reminded me more of him looking at fellow predator whose been injured during a feeding frenzy. He knows Peabody's been had and doesn't want him to mess up and expose him too. He's ready to take him down rather than being bit too.
I've also always had this idea the Merlin, being a titled position and not a name, might have a mantle attached to it, and that mantle might be corrupted already.
p
PT/BG also did nothing to lessen my opinion. Most important battle in years and the Merlin is nowhere to be seen? What really could have been going on that half the senior council was absent? Especially if everyone really wanted the eye.

[Mira]

PT/BG also did nothing to lessen my opinion. Most important battle in years and the Merlin is nowhere to be seen? What really could have been going on that half the senior council was absent? Especially if everyone really wanted the eye.

Only reasonable answer is they feared that Harry and the good people of Chicago would lose.  And in that event some wizards had to hang back where it was safe to fight another day.

[Arjan]

Or they were just in there to get the eye and when Harry kept it for himself....

[Mira]

Or they were just in there to get the eye and when Harry kept it for himself....

Well, if that were true, you'd think that Langtry himself would have played clean up and not Marcone/Namshiel to assist Harry is shipping Ethniu off to Demonreach... 

[Griffyn612]

Cristos is more complicated than I expected. At first he seems warlike and is called "unpleasant" by Ebenezar, and seems like a serious threat as he deals with a powerful supernatural threat. But when we next seem him he seems more like a greasy, perhaps corrupt perhaps just incompetent, politician. Next we seem him he ends up being friendly with Ebenezar and contributes reasonably to the Battle of Chicago. He mostly just seems like a bit of a fool.

Still, it could all be an act. Perhaps he is more dangerous than we realise. Perhaps he is more malevolent than he appears. But Cristos fought when he could have just disappeared though, or even joined the other team. Hell of an act in my opinion.

If the Turn Coat plan had been successful, it would have seen LaFortier dead, Luccio executed, Langtry embarrassed, and Morgan discredited, Harry implicated for his relationship with Luccio (which would be conveniently revealed), Cristos the rising star, and Peabody still in place to manipulate things.

Then, Cristos could accept the peace summit from Arianna, look like he's pushing for peace to save wizard lives, and when things fall apart with Listens sick and the other Seniors missing, he could take control just like he did. If the curse had succeeded, then Harry and Eb would be dead, Harry could be blamed for the illness that swept through Edinburgh after his visit, Listens might be dead, the missing Seniors would have been painted as cowards that hid in the Council's time of need, and Cristos would be the leader of the Council in one way or the other.

It's a quick rise to power for Cristos, who could completely control the Council with Peabody's ink.

Instead, things fall apart, he isn't the undisputed champion of the Council, and he has to change tactics. He has to play nice with the other Seniors, and remain involved in things. He's shown himself to be brave in Changes, so now he's got to keep up appearances. I have no doubt Eb is suspicious of him, so he's sticking close, and Cristos had no choice but to show up for the talks for numerous reasons. And once he's there, he's got to fight for real to keep himself alive and keep up appearances.

Maybe he's just a pawn, witting or otherwise. Or maybe he's manipulated things to put himself in power over all wizards in order to change the nature of the Council itself from the top down, and bring about that corruption he mentioned in Dead Beat first-hand.

[TheCuriousFan]

See, I figure Cristo is just an idiot, and PT/BG reinforced that idea to me. Idk he just seems suck up and too into posturing. He's just in the 'game' of politics. I've always thought Langtry was the other traitor. For various reasons, the look he gave Peabody when Harry outted him being the most prominent. That shark look, idk. It reminded me more of him looking at fellow predator whose been injured during a feeding frenzy. He knows Peabody's been had and doesn't want him to mess up and expose him too. He's ready to take him down rather than being bit too.
I've also always had this idea the Merlin, being a titled position and not a name, might have a mantle attached to it, and that mantle might be corrupted already.
p
PT/BG also did nothing to lessen my opinion. Most important battle in years and the Merlin is nowhere to be seen? What really could have been going on that half the senior council was absent? Especially if everyone really wanted the eye.

Or to put it charitably to Cristos, his first impulse is to go for the peaceful option over the violent one.

If the Turn Coat plan had been successful, it would have seen LaFortier dead, Luccio executed, Langtry embarrassed, and Morgan discredited, Harry implicated for his relationship with Luccio (which would be conveniently revealed), Cristos the rising star, and Peabody still in place to manipulate things.

Then, Cristos could accept the peace summit from Arianna, look like he's pushing for peace to save wizard lives, and when things fall apart with Listens sick and the other Seniors missing, he could take control just like he did. If the curse had succeeded, then Harry and Eb would be dead, Harry could be blamed for the illness that swept through Edinburgh after his visit, Listens might be dead, the missing Seniors would have been painted as cowards that hid in the Council's time of need, and Cristos would be the leader of the Council in one way or the other.

It's a quick rise to power for Cristos, who could completely control the Council with Peabody's ink.

Instead, things fall apart, he isn't the undisputed champion of the Council, and he has to change tactics. He has to play nice with the other Seniors, and remain involved in things. He's shown himself to be brave in Changes, so now he's got to keep up appearances. I have no doubt Eb is suspicious of him, so he's sticking close, and Cristos had no choice but to show up for the talks for numerous reasons. And once he's there, he's got to fight for real to keep himself alive and keep up appearances.

Maybe he's just a pawn, witting or otherwise. Or maybe he's manipulated things to put himself in power over all wizards in order to change the nature of the Council itself from the top down, and bring about that corruption he mentioned in Dead Beat first-hand.

And here I thought you were on the Simon Cowl train.

[Yuillegan]

See, I figure Cristo is just an idiot, and PT/BG reinforced that idea to me. Idk he just seems suck up and too into posturing. He's just in the 'game' of politics. I've always thought Langtry was the other traitor. For various reasons, the look he gave Peabody when Harry outted him being the most prominent. That shark look, idk. It reminded me more of him looking at fellow predator whose been injured during a feeding frenzy. He knows Peabody's been had and doesn't want him to mess up and expose him too. He's ready to take him down rather than being bit too.
I've also always had this idea the Merlin, being a titled position and not a name, might have a mantle attached to it, and that mantle might be corrupted already.
p
PT/BG also did nothing to lessen my opinion. Most important battle in years and the Merlin is nowhere to be seen? What really could have been going on that half the senior council was absent? Especially if everyone really wanted the eye.

Can the Mantle's actually be corrupted? I am not so certain that the Merlin has one either...what makes you say that? It's possible Langtry was doing a Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, and letting Peabody (his servant) take the fall. But why then, would the Merlin also have been targeted and possibly influenced by the psychic ink? Seems a bit odd. The ink also explains so of his poor behaviour - encouraging his defensive mindset and making him overly cautious etc.

To be fair the the Merlin and the rest of the White Council, the Fomor took everyone by surprise. As far as I can see not one person was prepared or expecting what happened in Battle Ground. Sure, most of them knew the Fomor were treacherous. But they didn't expect a full-scale invasion. A destruction of the status quo. I suspect if they had known what was coming, the White Council might have taken appropriate counter-measures, along with the other accorded nations depending on who informed whom. The Eye didn't attract them, it kept them on the field. Most of those who fought were already in Chicago.

If the Turn Coat plan had been successful, it would have seen LaFortier dead, Luccio executed, Langtry embarrassed, and Morgan discredited, Harry implicated for his relationship with Luccio (which would be conveniently revealed), Cristos the rising star, and Peabody still in place to manipulate things.

Then, Cristos could accept the peace summit from Arianna, look like he's pushing for peace to save wizard lives, and when things fall apart with Listens sick and the other Seniors missing, he could take control just like he did. If the curse had succeeded, then Harry and Eb would be dead, Harry could be blamed for the illness that swept through Edinburgh after his visit, Listens might be dead, the missing Seniors would have been painted as cowards that hid in the Council's time of need, and Cristos would be the leader of the Council in one way or the other.

It's a quick rise to power for Cristos, who could completely control the Council with Peabody's ink.

Instead, things fall apart, he isn't the undisputed champion of the Council, and he has to change tactics. He has to play nice with the other Seniors, and remain involved in things. He's shown himself to be brave in Changes, so now he's got to keep up appearances. I have no doubt Eb is suspicious of him, so he's sticking close, and Cristos had no choice but to show up for the talks for numerous reasons. And once he's there, he's got to fight for real to keep himself alive and keep up appearances.

When you put it like that it does look very bad for Cristos. At the very least it makes him look like he's being manipulated. But playing devil's advocate here there is an alternate explanation.

He also could just be an idiot. A sort-of well meaning idiot ending up running the Council just when it needs to be at its strongest, and ends up being at its weakest. That's potentially more dangerous to the longevity of the Council.

Let's say Cristos is a power hungry, pompous buffoon. He wants to be the big man. So someone (Black Council perhaps) feeds his ego and helps put him in place to be promoted to SC once a SC member is removed...and arranges that very thing. Then Cristos thinks he can "save" the Council from their horrible war and tries to negotiate an armistice with the Vampires etc. Which would have made things worse for the Council but he believes he is the hero doing the right thing.

However, I am not saying any of the above is the case - merely that's an alternative argument. One thing that stands out is that Cristos apparently had loyalists kidnap and detain most of the Wardens. Forty percent of the senior most wardens. This is in Changes and apparently takes place after Harry leaves Edinburgh. Ramirez and Luccio are both captured. This is interesting I think, especially as Ramirez undergoes a slight behaviour change. He also becomes more loyal to the Council than before.

I think it's a good point you mention the McCoy is always near Cristos. The White Council's hitman seems to now always be right next to Cristos. This is as far back as Changes such as when Cristos and McCoy are the only two Senior Council members on stage with Arianna. This could be interpreted a few ways. Either they are now inseparable best friends and joined at the hip, or that it's all just coincidence they are together, or that McCoy has been assigned to watch the most disturbing threat on the Council and execute him should he prove to be the danger they think he is.

The third option could well be the most likely. I would be a little disappointed if Cristos was Cowl, although I do see how it's very possible. Mostly because Cristos got wrecked in Battle Ground and I would expect a wizard of Cowl's level to be much more threatening. However, I could also see that Cristos might just be on Cowl's team. This might lend weight to the Cowl is Simon theory as they're both possibly part of the same faction.

Maybe he's just a pawn, witting or otherwise. Or maybe he's manipulated things to put himself in power over all wizards in order to change the nature of the Council itself from the top down, and bring about that corruption he mentioned in Dead Beat first-hand.

Assuming Cristos is Cowl of course. Cowl seemed to want to end the Council, not change it. But there are many paths to victory after all.

[Griffyn612]

And here I thought you were on the Simon Cowl train.

Nah, I've been a Cristos/Cowl vote almost since he first appeared on the page. But I like Simon theories, and I'd prefer him over Justin or someone else.

When you put it like that it does look very bad for Cristos. At the very least it makes him look like he's being manipulated. But playing devil's advocate here there is an alternate explanation.

He also could just be an idiot. A sort-of well meaning idiot ending up running the Council just when it needs to be at its strongest, and ends up being at its weakest. That's potentially more dangerous to the longevity of the Council.

Let's say Cristos is a power hungry, pompous buffoon. He wants to be the big man. So someone (Black Council perhaps) feeds his ego and helps put him in place to be promoted to SC once a SC member is removed...and arranges that very thing. Then Cristos thinks he can "save" the Council from their horrible war and tries to negotiate an armistice with the Vampires etc. Which would have made things worse for the Council but he believes he is the hero doing the right thing.

However, I am not saying any of the above is the case - merely that's an alternative argument. One thing that stands out is that Cristos apparently had loyalists kidnap and detain most of the Wardens. Forty percent of the senior most wardens. This is in Changes and apparently takes place after Harry leaves Edinburgh. Ramirez and Luccio are both captured. This is interesting I think, especially as Ramirez undergoes a slight behaviour change. He also becomes more loyal to the Council than before.

I think it's a good point you mention the McCoy is always near Cristos. The White Council's hitman seems to now always be right next to Cristos. This is as far back as Changes such as when Cristos and McCoy are the only two Senior Council members on stage with Arianna. This could be interpreted a few ways. Either they are now inseparable best friends and joined at the hip, or that it's all just coincidence they are together, or that McCoy has been assigned to watch the most disturbing threat on the Council and execute him should he prove to be the danger they think he is.

The third option could well be the most likely. I would be a little disappointed if Cristos was Cowl, although I do see how it's very possible. Mostly because Cristos got wrecked in Battle Ground and I would expect a wizard of Cowl's level to be much more threatening. However, I could also see that Cristos might just be on Cowl's team. This might lend weight to the Cowl is Simon theory as they're both possibly part of the same faction.

Assuming Cristos is Cowl of course. Cowl seemed to want to end the Council, not change it. But there are many paths to victory after all.

Cristos could just be the latest version of Aurora/Maeve/Vito, where Cowl and/or Nemesis are promoting new people to accorded nation leadership positions.

But Cristos is different, because unlike all the others, he succeeded.

As for getting curb-stomped in BG, Cristos survived something most wouldn't. And we've seen Cowl be curb-stomped as well, and injured enough to take years to recover. They're both roaches that survive, but not by hiding or escaping.

And as for Cowl wanting the Council gone, he talks in Dead Beat like he wants the rules changed rather than the Council destroyed. He thinks the Council will fall, and might have expedited it himself, but what he seemed to want was the freedom to explore dark magic. If Cristos could have taken power and convinced the survivors to change the rules to better protect themselves, it would accomplish what Cowl wanted.

[Yuillegan]

Cristos could just be the latest version of Aurora/Maeve/Vito, where Cowl and/or Nemesis are promoting new people to accorded nation leadership positions.

But Cristos is different, because unlike all the others, he succeeded.

As for getting curb-stomped in BG, Cristos survived something most wouldn't. And we've seen Cowl be curb-stomped as well, and injured enough to take years to recover. They're both roaches that survive, but not by hiding or escaping.

And as for Cowl wanting the Council gone, he talks in Dead Beat like he wants the rules changed rather than the Council destroyed. He thinks the Council will fall, and might have expedited it himself, but what he seemed to want was the freedom to explore dark magic. If Cristos could have taken power and convinced the survivors to change the rules to better protect themselves, it would accomplish what Cowl wanted.

Yes that's certainly possible. Very in-line with Nemesis/Black Council tactics of the past. Get you're own person in a leadership position and cause chaos. Although to be fair Aurora and Maeve already had leadership positions. Often its really just turning people in positions of power into agents. Which is a very effective real world tactic after all.

Did Cristos survive? I wasn't sure if that was confirmed yet. But I might have missed something too. One thing though is Cristos seems to have a different style of magic than Cowl. Cristos in Battle Ground uses large-scale earth magic. Impressive feats like helping Ebenezer make a large amount of earth become something like quicksand, or sort-of becoming a living landslide. Cowl was a bit more precise, likes to use sudden and powerful bursts of evocation. Like very skillful yet fast Ways. Force magic, mind magic, illusion/shapeshifting, Ways, and thaumaturgy. Possibly only used necromancy when he tried the Darkhallow out (not that he was incapable of raising the dead, but clearly didn't want to expend his energies that way).  Different situations of course than Battle Ground. Finally, what he said to Dresden stood out to me. "I have no intention of fighting them, I'm simply going to kill them" and "I have no intention of entering a tactical contest" both of these things he says to Harry in Dead Beat. Cowl seems like he doesn't mind killing if he has to, doesn't mind a duel. But he isn't about battles and fair fights etc. Cristos might be in the same vein. But he went into the fight all the same.

That's a fair argument. Council destroyed, Council changed, doesn't matter as long as the end result is being able to push the limits of magic and break the rules.

[Griffyn612]

Yes that's certainly possible. Very in-line with Nemesis/Black Council tactics of the past. Get you're own person in a leadership position and cause chaos. Although to be fair Aurora and Maeve already had leadership positions. Often its really just turning people in positions of power into agents. Which is a very effective real world tactic after all.

Did Cristos survive? I wasn't sure if that was confirmed yet. But I might have missed something too. One thing though is Cristos seems to have a different style of magic than Cowl. Cristos in Battle Ground uses large-scale earth magic. Impressive feats like helping Ebenezer make a large amount of earth become something like quicksand, or sort-of becoming a living landslide. Cowl was a bit more precise, likes to use sudden and powerful bursts of evocation. Like very skillful yet fast Ways. Force magic, mind magic, illusion/shapeshifting, Ways, and thaumaturgy. Possibly only used necromancy when he tried the Darkhallow out (not that he was incapable of raising the dead, but clearly didn't want to expend his energies that way).  Different situations of course than Battle Ground. Finally, what he said to Dresden stood out to me. "I have no intention of fighting them, I'm simply going to kill them" and "I have no intention of entering a tactical contest" both of these things he says to Harry in Dead Beat. Cowl seems like he doesn't mind killing if he has to, doesn't mind a duel. But he isn't about battles and fair fights etc. Cristos might be in the same vein. But he went into the fight all the same.

That's a fair argument. Council destroyed, Council changed, doesn't matter as long as the end result is being able to push the limits of magic and break the rules.

Yeah, I think for Cowl, it's not a matter of how. He just wants the freedom to do what he wants, and knows that the Council will oppose him. And if he's Cristos, then his ongoing involvement with the Council is the result of the plan failing, and he's trapped in a public position.

[Yuillegan]

Yeah, I think for Cowl, it's not a matter of how. He just wants the freedom to do what he wants, and knows that the Council will oppose him. And if he's Cristos, then his ongoing involvement with the Council is the result of the plan failing, and he's trapped in a public position.

Then the question is, what does Cowl want to do? Is it merely "I want to be able to practice black magic to my hearts content and kill, control, and otherwise do what I like to people as I am god-king" or is it more around the fact the Council won't allow any political interference, persecute even minor infractions with serious and sometimes fatal results, have no real court of appeal and an overly simplistic and out-dated legal structure, let alone the outdated and overly simplistic and often unrepresentative voting system, and governing body that is effectively immune to criticism or change?

I mean, if it's the later you can hardly blame the guy. The Council if it existed in our world would be a disaster of an organisation. I suspect though it's a bit of both.

If Cowl is Cristos, I doubt he will continue the charade much longer. I'd expect reforms that benefit him and his supporters to happen, probably while he politically or literally kills his opponents.