Author Topic: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?  (Read 19632 times)

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Considering we have now seen a Titan, a proto-god who seemingly still had access to her power (rather than down-sized like Odin), I have wondered if that was the sort-of threat Cowl would have been after a successful Darkhallow - I shall call this hypothetical being God-Cowl. Please feel free to come up with a better term.

We know that God-Cowl would have had the necessary horsepower, in terms of at least raw magical strength if not physical strength (although I think it's all intertwined at that level) to defeat Mab. This was from a WOJ from years ago in a online Q&A.

Back in Dead Beat, Harry thought the Darkhallow would be more power than a mortal had held in more than a millennia. I believe Mab thought it was more than in the memory of humanity, which is significantly longer. Harry called this being a junior-league god. I am not entirely sure what a major-league god would be...my thoughts tend toward Zeus, Mother Winter, Uriel, a fully powered-up Odin, perhaps Balor, etc.

So based on what we have here is a being stronger than Mab yet weaker than a major god. Which does seem to be about where Ethniu sits.

God-Cowl was also the kind of being that could have broken into the White Council headquarters at Edinburgh and the hospital in Dead Beat that the Merlin had turned into a fortress due to his "fancy wards". God-Cowl would have supposedly been so much stronger than the White Council as to be beyond their reach. Power enough to shape the world.

Also, this one's for you Mira, when Harry talks with Mab she actually confirms that the White Council struck down Kemmler as he was attempting the Darkhallow. This is in Dead Beat when she reveals what the Word of Kemmler is.

Now Ethniu isn't a slouch though. We saw her take on several demigods (Mab, Titania, the Erlking, and Vadderung - technically that's his power level it seems even if he is the remnants of a major god). Yes, she was also wearing her Denial Armour, but still. She also had no issue with Ebenezer, Cristos, River Shoulders, Listens-to-Wind, the Archive, etc. And even though the Knights of the Cross and Harry did the most damage with their super-crit damage holy weapons, she still kept going. Although one could argue the biggest damage was actually from Gungnir with Odin/Vadderung's direction. Even Marcone with all his "new" power and toys didn't do much but slow her slightly. And this doesn't even mention that the only two people who actually took a hit from the Eye of Balor, the magical superweapon of mass destruction, were Mab and Titania. And Titania mostly just redirected the energy while dampening the local magical energy, while Mab only partially blocked it so she only ended up burnt out and withered rather than completely annihilated.

To me, God-Cowl would have been slightly weaker. Now superweapon or armour of invulnerability. However, I suspect as he was fully powered up and new he would have had a bit of extra juice, which might have meant his base magical level was stronger. Also, Cowl is a far better tactician. Yes, he lost to Harry...when Harry blew up his highly delicate extremely explosive spell/ritual. Otherwise he hasn't yet lost a straight fight, and almost killed or severely maimed Dresden several times. Beyond that, he is smart enough ever after meeting Harry to not have direct contact again and send assassins and monsters etc.

I suspect if Cowl had become a god. He would have been a far worse threat than Ethniu. I doubt he would have done a big, messy, invade humanity battle type thing. No, he would have murdered humanities protectors one by one, in the shadows. He would have taken out the Senior Council, and therefore the White Council as a whole by extension. He would have destroyed their allies too, like the Venatori Umbrorum. Perhaps even the Librarians. Not to mention whatever competition was around, the Vampire Courts, the Archive, etc. Join or die, just like Ethniu.

Considering his tactics in Dead Beat like shutting down the power, communications of all levels, etc - just like Ethniu did, I suspect he probably would have been smarter and more targeted. Why create a magical dead spot when you could just take out the power stations and the communication towers and satellites? Yes, radio would still work but perhaps he might have some spell for that. Especially at god level. That much confusion...it would be a danger all on it's own and he would never need reveal himself until the chaos was overwhelming...and then assert himself (if that was his aim) over the planet.

Not to mention whatever monsters and villains chose to side with him that he could use as his armies and death squads.

Hell, he might have used his newfound powers to control people and launch nukes. I doubt that even would have occurred to Ethniu.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline TheCuriousFan

  • Special Collections Division
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 16609
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2021, 04:20:47 AM »
Considering we have now seen a Titan, a proto-god who seemingly still had access to her power (rather than down-sized like Odin), I have wondered if that was the sort-of threat Cowl would have been after a successful Darkhallow - I shall call this hypothetical being God-Cowl. Please feel free to come up with a better term.

We know that God-Cowl would have had the necessary horsepower, in terms of at least raw magical strength if not physical strength (although I think it's all intertwined at that level) to defeat Mab. This was from a WOJ from years ago in a online Q&A.

Back in Dead Beat, Harry thought the Darkhallow would be more power than a mortal had held in more than a millennia. I believe Mab thought it was more than in the memory of humanity, which is significantly longer. Harry called this being a junior-league god. I am not entirely sure what a major-league god would be...my thoughts tend toward Zeus, Mother Winter, Uriel, a fully powered-up Odin, perhaps Balor, etc.

So based on what we have here is a being stronger than Mab yet weaker than a major god. Which does seem to be about where Ethniu sits.

God-Cowl was also the kind of being that could have broken into the White Council headquarters at Edinburgh and the hospital in Dead Beat that the Merlin had turned into a fortress due to his "fancy wards". God-Cowl would have supposedly been so much stronger than the White Council as to be beyond their reach. Power enough to shape the world.

Also, this one's for you Mira, when Harry talks with Mab she actually confirms that the White Council struck down Kemmler as he was attempting the Darkhallow. This is in Dead Beat when she reveals what the Word of Kemmler is.

Now Ethniu isn't a slouch though. We saw her take on several demigods (Mab, Titania, the Erlking, and Vadderung - technically that's his power level it seems even if he is the remnants of a major god). Yes, she was also wearing her Denial Armour, but still. She also had no issue with Ebenezer, Cristos, River Shoulders, Listens-to-Wind, the Archive, etc. And even though the Knights of the Cross and Harry did the most damage with their super-crit damage holy weapons, she still kept going. Although one could argue the biggest damage was actually from Gungnir with Odin/Vadderung's direction. Even Marcone with all his "new" power and toys didn't do much but slow her slightly. And this doesn't even mention that the only two people who actually took a hit from the Eye of Balor, the magical superweapon of mass destruction, were Mab and Titania. And Titania mostly just redirected the energy while dampening the local magical energy, while Mab only partially blocked it so she only ended up burnt out and withered rather than completely annihilated.

To me, God-Cowl would have been slightly weaker. Now superweapon or armour of invulnerability. However, I suspect as he was fully powered up and new he would have had a bit of extra juice, which might have meant his base magical level was stronger. Also, Cowl is a far better tactician. Yes, he lost to Harry...when Harry blew up his highly delicate extremely explosive spell/ritual. Otherwise he hasn't yet lost a straight fight, and almost killed or severely maimed Dresden several times. Beyond that, he is smart enough ever after meeting Harry to not have direct contact again and send assassins and monsters etc.

I suspect if Cowl had become a god. He would have been a far worse threat than Ethniu. I doubt he would have done a big, messy, invade humanity battle type thing. No, he would have murdered humanities protectors one by one, in the shadows. He would have taken out the Senior Council, and therefore the White Council as a whole by extension. He would have destroyed their allies too, like the Venatori Umbrorum. Perhaps even the Librarians. Not to mention whatever competition was around, the Vampire Courts, the Archive, etc. Join or die, just like Ethniu.

Considering his tactics in Dead Beat like shutting down the power, communications of all levels, etc - just like Ethniu did, I suspect he probably would have been smarter and more targeted. Why create a magical dead spot when you could just take out the power stations and the communication towers and satellites? Yes, radio would still work but perhaps he might have some spell for that. Especially at god level. That much confusion...it would be a danger all on it's own and he would never need reveal himself until the chaos was overwhelming...and then assert himself (if that was his aim) over the planet.

Not to mention whatever monsters and villains chose to side with him that he could use as his armies and death squads.

Hell, he might have used his newfound powers to control people and launch nukes. I doubt that even would have occurred to Ethniu.
Yep, he'd have probably skipped the dramatic invasion bits to go pop the right nine substations to annihilate the United States.

And on Cowl vs the eye, we've seen that he can teleport out of the way real fast when he needs to. He might have been able to pull off the same sort of trick Marcone did and dodge the eye.
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

If you want me to type up a book quote or find a WoJ quote, send me a PM.

Rest in peace mdodd.

Offline Gman

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5470
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2021, 07:11:30 PM »
I doubt Cowl after the Darkhollow would be in Ethniu's weight class. Cowl is undoubtedly smarter and might win due to Ethniu being stupid. Ethniu also was stronger than normal due to the magic armor, the eye and the extra magic available due to the fear by the people of Chicago boosting her power. Just as Mab is a lot more powerful than the Erlking. As a human matador can bring down a bull in a bullfight. Cowl might be able to defeat Ethniu. Harry was able to do that with help. Cowl might in Mab's weight class though. I think it would be how big the Darkhollow was and how much Cowl was able to take in.

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2021, 05:31:41 AM »
Cowl by far.  Ethniu wasn't actually that impressive.  Without her armor that was built by someone else, and the eye which was also built by someone else she didn't really do anything that impressive.  Her fight with Odin, Erlking, and Titania was impressive but could she have pulled it off without the armor?  I don't think so.  When she faced off against Marcone, and Dresden after losing the Eye, what did she do that was impressive?  Mental manipulation?  telekinesis?  Anything?  She actually jumped into the water to retrieve the Eye rather than use any kind of power.  Her talent without the Eye, and Armor seems limited.

She displayed enhanced speed, strength, and durability but didn't really display much power without the tools she had obtained.

Dark god Cowl would be a different animal entirely.  Lets look at what he would have:

Wizard:  Wizards have the power to control nature, and manipulate reality itself.  Bending Beings to their will, controlling demons, and summoning Outsiders.  They can raise the undead, and manipulate time.  Wizards are really only limited by the power they can call on, and their mortal bodies.  Cowl after the Dark Hollow would no longer have those limitations. 

The Erlking:  The Dark Hollow requires the Wild Hunt, and Cowl would absorb all of it, including the Erlking.  This would be a great bit of power on it's own, but also (in theory) make Cowl an immortal.  Just as Erlking took lethal damage from Ethniu, he began to heal right away.

Pure power:  Cowl would consume the shades of not just the people killed by the Dark Hollow, he'd also absorb the power of the shades that had been there for hundreds of millions of years.  This would be an incredible amount of pure power.

So Cowl would have the wizard toolbox of abilities + the Erlking's powers and immortality, + the raw power of millions of years worth of shades.  Ethniu used the Eye to bring down buildings, Cowl could have brought down the entire city with a powerful earthquake.  Or turned the city into a raging inferno.  He could have began raising an undead army that killed the people in the city, and raise everyone who died, creating an every growing undead army.  He could have caused widespread blackouts...  The destruction he could have caused would have been limited only by his imagination. 

At the end of the day I think it comes down to abilities.  Ethniu's danger was one dimensional.  Sure it was an incredibly powerful weapon, but it was still a single type of attack.  A wizard who is super juiced up can do just about anything.

Mab said it would create a dark god, and I think she was literal.  An immortal wizard with that much power wouldn't be limited by Mantle's rules.  It would be pure power that Cowl could manipulate in any way that he wanted.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 05:36:11 AM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2021, 05:41:06 AM »
As for dark god Cowl vs Ethniu.  I don't think he'd have a problem.  Summon some Outsiders, and some demons to keep her busy, and then open a portal to the Outside to knock her into.  No more Ethniu. 
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2021, 10:56:12 AM »
As for dark god Cowl vs Ethniu.  I don't think he'd have a problem.  Summon some Outsiders, and some demons to keep her busy, and then open a portal to the Outside to knock her into.  No more Ethniu.
I do not think you can just summon a portal to the outside.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2021, 01:45:07 PM »
Yep, he'd have probably skipped the dramatic invasion bits to go pop the right nine substations to annihilate the United States.

And on Cowl vs the eye, we've seen that he can teleport out of the way real fast when he needs to. He might have been able to pull off the same sort of trick Marcone did and dodge the eye.
Yeah, you have to admire his his pragmatism in Dead Beat. I wouldn't mind seeing someone do some sort of infrastructure attack in the series. Probably won't happen until the BAT though.

Can Cowl teleport? I can't say I remember him doing that in Dead Beat...was it in another book? I am sure a couple of wizards, perhaps Cowl included, can pull off the point-to-point translocation (teleport) trick. Mostly Senior Council but possibly others, some perhaps hiding from the Council. I am almost certain Eb can do it, and likely the Gatekeeper. Although I suspect that Namshiel helps with the knowledge gap for Marcone, I wonder if there are side-effects he hasn't mentioned or dangers he has downplayed. Even if other wizards CAN do it, they might have very good reasons NOT to teleport.

I doubt Cowl after the Darkhollow would be in Ethniu's weight class. Cowl is undoubtedly smarter and might win due to Ethniu being stupid. Ethniu also was stronger than normal due to the magic armor, the eye and the extra magic available due to the fear by the people of Chicago boosting her power. Just as Mab is a lot more powerful than the Erlking. As a human matador can bring down a bull in a bullfight. Cowl might be able to defeat Ethniu. Harry was able to do that with help. Cowl might in Mab's weight class though. I think it would be how big the Darkhollow was and how much Cowl was able to take in.
Fair enough point. But then again, Cowl needs enough divine power to get through her Titan Armour and I truly don't know if he would have enough. From the sound of it in Battle Ground, nothing short of the biggest/most powerful beings can actually do it. Like Archangel level, Zeus level etc. Obvs TWG. Even without it...would he have enough muscle and experience etc to win that sort of fight? He'd be playing at a whole new level.

Not saying you're wrong or right here. Just playing devil's advocate. You're entirely right about the variables. I was mostly talking about the scenario (an alternate timeline if you like), where Cowl succeeded in Dead Beat and got his Darkhallow though. Gives us some frame of reference otherwise it's fairly impossible to compare the pair. Can't say I agree that Cowl would have been in Cowl's weight class, mostly because JB said he had the horsepower necessary to beat her. From what I have seen of Mab in combat, anything less than a true equal is gonna get smacked down. She isn't just strong, she is skillful and smart. And very ruthless. Like Harry, she can fight outsider her weight division. So to me, Cowl would have to be a fair bit stronger to beat her.

Cowl by far.  Ethniu wasn't actually that impressive.  Without her armor that was built by someone else, and the eye which was also built by someone else she didn't really do anything that impressive.  Her fight with Odin, Erlking, and Titania was impressive but could she have pulled it off without the armor?  I don't think so.  When she faced off against Marcone, and Dresden after losing the Eye, what did she do that was impressive?  Mental manipulation?  telekinesis?  Anything?  She actually jumped into the water to retrieve the Eye rather than use any kind of power.  Her talent without the Eye, and Armor seems limited.

She displayed enhanced speed, strength, and durability but didn't really display much power without the tools she had obtained.

Dark god Cowl would be a different animal entirely.  Lets look at what he would have:

Wizard:  Wizards have the power to control nature, and manipulate reality itself.  Bending Beings to their will, controlling demons, and summoning Outsiders.  They can raise the undead, and manipulate time.  Wizards are really only limited by the power they can call on, and their mortal bodies.  Cowl after the Dark Hollow would no longer have those limitations. 

The Erlking:  The Dark Hollow requires the Wild Hunt, and Cowl would absorb all of it, including the Erlking.  This would be a great bit of power on it's own, but also (in theory) make Cowl an immortal.  Just as Erlking took lethal damage from Ethniu, he began to heal right away.

Pure power:  Cowl would consume the shades of not just the people killed by the Dark Hollow, he'd also absorb the power of the shades that had been there for hundreds of millions of years.  This would be an incredible amount of pure power.

So Cowl would have the wizard toolbox of abilities + the Erlking's powers and immortality, + the raw power of millions of years worth of shades.  Ethniu used the Eye to bring down buildings, Cowl could have brought down the entire city with a powerful earthquake.  Or turned the city into a raging inferno.  He could have began raising an undead army that killed the people in the city, and raise everyone who died, creating an every growing undead army.  He could have caused widespread blackouts...  The destruction he could have caused would have been limited only by his imagination. 

At the end of the day I think it comes down to abilities.  Ethniu's danger was one dimensional.  Sure it was an incredibly powerful weapon, but it was still a single type of attack.  A wizard who is super juiced up can do just about anything.

Mab said it would create a dark god, and I think she was literal.  An immortal wizard with that much power wouldn't be limited by Mantle's rules.  It would be pure power that Cowl could manipulate in any way that he wanted.
I get what you're saying about Ethniu ending up being a bit underwhelming. However, she had a strong start which was cool. Her tactics were poor, her strategy wasn't very well thought out, her abilities and tools/weapons were not quite as strong as expected. However, she did hold out against quite a lot of power for a while. Her fight with the demigods was interesting. Not sure if she would have won without the armour. However I am sure she had more power than they did, even without the armour. She was a BIG deal..

To be fair, I think wizards are just like very low-level gods. Dresden describes all the gods fights with Power in Battle Ground. Which to me was just them using a far more advanced form of magic, and advanced combat. So not sure that Cowl being a wizard would give Cowl more of an advantage. Cowl might be more innovative than Ethniu when it comes to magic and tactics though. Hard to say whether Cowl would have no responsibilities or accountabilities as a god. We just don't know enough.

I had a debate recently about whether the Erlking would have been consumed. In what I got from Dead Beat. Mab says the purpose of the Erlking is to summon those ancient hunter spirits/ghosts. It doesn't say anywhere about eating the Erlking as well. It seems like it would have made him immortal from spirits alone, which makes sense as all they are is power/energy.

Perhaps Cowl could do some act of magic to cause a natural disaster. But considering the truly staggering amount of energy involved, and the fact that Ethniu even ran out of gas, I'd say that's more of a one-hit type of thing.

In saying all that, I think you're probably right about how it would go and you're assessment of what kind of threat each would be.
As for dark god Cowl vs Ethniu.  I don't think he'd have a problem.  Summon some Outsiders, and some demons to keep her busy, and then open a portal to the Outside to knock her into.  No more Ethniu. 
Assuming Outsiders are not on her team of course. She did seem to be friends with them. Interesting idea about the portal. Only mortals can summon Outsiders so I suspect only a mortal could make a portal, assuming such things exist.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline seanham

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2021, 02:31:21 AM »
Interesting idea about the portal. Only mortals can summon Outsiders so I suspect only a mortal could make a portal, assuming such things exist.

I would think it would be possible to create a portal. The gates are in the Never Never and so I assume the Outside is also part of the Never Never, thus you just need to create a portal to the Never Never.

Offline TheCuriousFan

  • Special Collections Division
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 16609
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2021, 03:01:19 AM »
Yeah, you have to admire his his pragmatism in Dead Beat. I wouldn't mind seeing someone do some sort of infrastructure attack in the series. Probably won't happen until the BAT though.

Can Cowl teleport? I can't say I remember him doing that in Dead Beat...was it in another book? I am sure a couple of wizards, perhaps Cowl included, can pull off the point-to-point translocation (teleport) trick. Mostly Senior Council but possibly others, some perhaps hiding from the Council. I am almost certain Eb can do it, and likely the Gatekeeper. Although I suspect that Namshiel helps with the knowledge gap for Marcone, I wonder if there are side-effects he hasn't mentioned or dangers he has downplayed. Even if other wizards CAN do it, they might have very good reasons NOT to teleport.
They won't happen because they're just too powerful against humans unfortunately.

As for Cowl teleporting, it's either that or a really quick hop into the NN.

Quote from: Dead Beat Chapter Eight
Cowl's fingers formed into a rigid claw and he snarled a word I couldn't quite hear, slashing at the air.

There was a surge of power, darker this time, somehow more nebulous. The air around them blurred, there was the sudden scent of mildew and lightless waters, a sighing sound, and as quickly as that, they were simply gone.
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

If you want me to type up a book quote or find a WoJ quote, send me a PM.

Rest in peace mdodd.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2021, 04:44:57 AM »
I would think it would be possible to create a portal. The gates are in the Never Never and so I assume the Outside is also part of the Never Never, thus you just need to create a portal to the Never Never.
There seems to be some limitation with outsiders. It is mentioned several times that only humans can summon them. If Maeve could have created that gate she would have done so.

Also it would be too easy to end the world that way, some crazy god would have done so already.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2021, 07:03:35 PM »


Ethniu lost due to several factors in my opinion.  First being her anger, while anger might fuel the Eye, angry people don't always think clearly, plan, or think long term.. So she made missteps simply because she was pissed.  She was over confident, and the Fomor didn't disabuse her of that feeling, so she committed the cardinal sin of under estimating her opponents. Third, though she was strong, she didn't strike me as being overly bright..  So yes, compared to Ethniu can see Cowl being as strong or stronger.

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2021, 07:43:29 PM »
There seems to be some limitation with outsiders. It is mentioned several times that only humans can summon them. If Maeve could have created that gate she would have done so.

Maeve to our knowledge was never a wizard, and the Mantle of Lady isn't a mortal one. 

Quote
Also it would be too easy to end the world that way, some crazy god would have done so already.

Uh yeah that's why dark wizards are beheaded the instant they cause trouble.  Jim even said that the danger of warlocks is they can let Outsiders in.

It could be that Cowl would no longer be mortal and have some sort of restraint locked onto his abilities, but I don't know.  I think that's what is so frightening about a successful Dark Hollow.  The freedom of a mortal with the powers of an evil god.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 07:45:03 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2021, 08:12:26 PM »
Maeve to our knowledge was never a wizard, and the Mantle of Lady isn't a mortal one. 

Uh yeah that's why dark wizards are beheaded the instant they cause trouble.  Jim even said that the danger of warlocks is they can let Outsiders in.

It could be that Cowl would no longer be mortal and have some sort of restraint locked onto his abilities, but I don't know.  I think that's what is so frightening about a successful Dark Hollow.  The freedom of a mortal with the powers of an evil god.

That's a nasty combo..


Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2021, 10:42:34 PM »
Maeve to our knowledge was never a wizard, and the Mantle of Lady isn't a mortal one. 
She was pretty good at it. But I don't think it matters. Cowl would not be the first wizard to accomplish this. It was just a long time ago. I think the restriction comes with the power. I believe there is woj that the erlking became who he is by such a ritual.

And Cowl would not be mortal anymore either. If he gathered enough power. That is the whole point.
Quote
Uh yeah that's why dark wizards are beheaded the instant they cause trouble.  Jim even said that the danger of warlocks is they can let Outsiders in.
They can summon them which is bad enough but a gate at a quiet place means they can stream in. That would be the end of reality as we know it. The council can never catch all warlocks and outsiders have internal support. If a warlock like cowl could do such a thing it would already be over. No gates.

Quote
It could be that Cowl would no longer be mortal and have some sort of restraint locked onto his abilities, but I don't know.  I think that's what is so frightening about a successful Dark Hollow.  The freedom of a mortal with the powers of an evil god.
With that much power you loose your free will. I think that has something to do with the ability to summon outsiders.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Would Cowl after successful Darkhallow been as strong as Ethniu?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2021, 11:20:45 AM »
I would think it would be possible to create a portal. The gates are in the Never Never and so I assume the Outside is also part of the Never Never, thus you just need to create a portal to the Never Never.
Anything is possible with enough magic. Jim said once that if a being had enough power the only limit would be their imagination, they could rewrite the rules.

That being said, I suspect that no immortal being could simply open a portal as they like to the Outside. It's more than a matter of simple raw strength or knowledge, it requires a choice. An act of mortal will. From what I can see that kind of choice is only available to mortals. We know that mortal will and choice are extremely powerful, they change reality and create new universes (and possibly other things). I haven't yet seen or heard of immortals doing any such thing, even if they had the power.   

But any such being could always have mortal servants do it for them. What's interesting to me is that even when we see multiple Outsiders we have yet to see how they are summoned. And only occasionally we have seen more than a few. Especially the bigger ones like the Walkers. Why haven't we seen any mortal open up a major gate and let a horde of them in? Or even a Outer God etc? Perhaps it's impossible to keep a gate open for too long, especially a big gate. Perhaps the magic cost is too great or it damages the human summoner. Perhaps Mordite would seep through and start killing everything. Perhaps certain groups shut down such attempts quickly. Food for thought.

They won't happen because they're just too powerful against humans unfortunately.

As for Cowl teleporting, it's either that or a really quick hop into the NN.
Indeed...but maybe toward the end we will see such things. I am pretty sure Cowl just opened a Way into the Nevernever. I could be wrong but that's how I read it, and it seemed consistent with his style of opening Ways. Particularly the mildew smell and lightless waters stuff.

There seems to be some limitation with outsiders. It is mentioned several times that only humans can summon them. If Maeve could have created that gate she would have done so.

Also it would be too easy to end the world that way, some crazy god would have done so already.
Agreed. If it were so easy the battle would already be lost. No, I think it is as you say, it takes a mortal to summon Outsiders.

She was pretty good at it. But I don't think it matters. Cowl would not be the first wizard to accomplish this. It was just a long time ago. I think the restriction comes with the power. I believe there is woj that the erlking became who he is by such a ritual.

And Cowl would not be mortal anymore either. If he gathered enough power. That is the whole point.

They can summon them which is bad enough but a gate at a quiet place means they can stream in. That would be the end of reality as we know it. The council can never catch all warlocks and outsiders have internal support. If a warlock like cowl could do such a thing it would already be over. No gates.

With that much power you loose your free will. I think that has something to do with the ability to summon outsiders.
Agreed. It's been hinted, actually stated I think, that mortals have become gods before. The graphic novel "Welcome to the Jungle" covers this a bit. That being said there are discrepancies. Jim has said that the Erlking and Hecate etc got big by doing such rituals. On the other hand, most recently he came out and said the gods existed before time. I am sure he will fill in some of the gaps soon but it is an issue currently.

Cowl wanted power over being mortal because he, like most mortals, perceives that to be a limitation. And in many ways it is. But I suspect even Cowl didn't fully appreciate what he would be losing, and how his new limits would make him weaker in some ways. Less able to change things in certain but important ways.

Agreed. Clearly it isn't the easiest thing to whistle up an army of Outsiders. The fact that there is one big gate way out in the farthest reaches of reality says a lot about that.

Yes, the recurring theme is that more power equals less freedom. Even if from the outside it might not look that way. What it means fundamentally to be mortal would be lost. Mab even hints at this in Battle Ground when she reminds Dresden that immortality is no substitute for intelligence.

Maeve to our knowledge was never a wizard, and the Mantle of Lady isn't a mortal one. 

Uh yeah that's why dark wizards are beheaded the instant they cause trouble.  Jim even said that the danger of warlocks is they can let Outsiders in.

It could be that Cowl would no longer be mortal and have some sort of restraint locked onto his abilities, but I don't know.  I think that's what is so frightening about a successful Dark Hollow.  The freedom of a mortal with the powers of an evil god.
True, it doesn't seem like Maeve was a mortal wizard. However, the Fae have a slightly different relationship with magic to mortals. Closer to the Forest People etc. So even before she was Winter Lady she was a changeling Fae and I don't doubt she had some magical abilities. Once she had chosen to be Fae I think she would have lost that little last remaining bit of mortality and with it, the potential to summon Outsiders.

I am not sure I am convinced that the Darkhallow would allow the successful user to become immortal yet retain Free Will. The recurring theme is that more power equals less freedom. Cowl would have effectively sacrificed his mortality in order to become immortal. Literally, not-mortal. All the benefits of being mortal would have been lost. But Cowl would have become immortal, effectively unkillable, and incredibly powerful and knowledgeable. So it's a trade off.

I think the restraint on immortals is that they are stasis locked. Fixed points. Fixed ideas. They no longer have the ability to change easily. And if they cannot change themselves, they cannot change the world around them (in a really meaningful way). That's why Halloween and such conjunctions are such a big deal. It allows immortals to be mortal while on Earth. I think Vadderung worked out the advantage to that too. He can change himself which allows him to change the world. Perhaps, on Halloween, God-Cowl could have summoned Outsiders. Perhaps that is what Kemmler would have tried to do right before the Council killed him. But most other times and places, I suspect immortals are not able to do that.

Ethniu lost due to several factors in my opinion.  First being her anger, while anger might fuel the Eye, angry people don't always think clearly, plan, or think long term.. So she made missteps simply because she was pissed.  She was over confident, and the Fomor didn't disabuse her of that feeling, so she committed the cardinal sin of under estimating her opponents. Third, though she was strong, she didn't strike me as being overly bright..  So yes, compared to Ethniu can see Cowl being as strong or stronger.
That's fair. I think her rage and emotions definitely cost her even though as you point out, it fuelled some of her power and weapons. This is explored a bit with the Hellfire thing. Harry was stronger with Hellfire but he wasn't as deadly or focussed. Look how Hannah Ascher got beaten. I doubt the Fomor would have dared to comment on her rage. Even Listen wouldn't have been that bold.

God-Cowl would have been the bigger threat for all those reasons. Arguably even current mortal Cowl is more of a threat. Just as Nicodemus in some ways is a bigger threat than Lucifer.

But do you think that God-Cowl would have had as much or more magical muscle as Ethniu? Forget the tactics and issues for a moment, from a purely raw magical strength sense, how would you compare them Mira?
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.