Author Topic: What would be a counter to Carlos?  (Read 7722 times)

Offline groinkick

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What would be a counter to Carlos?
« on: May 15, 2021, 07:41:31 PM »
Alright so apparently Carlos being a water mage is a good counter to Dresden's style of magic.  So what kind of magic would be good against someone like Carlos?  Earth magic?  I am thinking if he tries to kill Harry, it will be Molly using mind magic to stop him.  So that might be a good counter.
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Offline b4utoo

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2021, 08:12:50 PM »
Lol who said they'll fight?

Harry can shield better. And is stronger in almost every way.... Carlos has skill enough...but it wouldn't even be a fight.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2021, 03:37:25 AM »
If it comes to that, Harry would probably be treating it more or less like the fight with Fix, trying to pull his punches enough to disable without killing. So he probably wouldn't even be trying fire, but Carlos' water shield would block that anyway.

Carlos has seen enough of Harry's use of forzare and air bursts to plan for countering those as well. Infriga is probably also more lethal than Harry would reach for to subdue a well-meaning but dangerously misguided good guy, but Carlos would presumably bring a plan for countering ice magic to any fight with the winter knight anyway. I'd assume even slipping something around the edge of his shield like icing the ground under his feet would be a challenge.

Harry would pretty much need something unusual enough that Carlos wouldn't have seen him using it before to plan a counter, as well as not easily countered by water. I wonder if he could pull off the gravity-concentrating spell fast enough to be useful in a fight, if he was only trying to focus it enough for a trip rather than to the point of turning anything organic in the AoE into chunky salsa.

He might be able to do something non-lethal with the strangler tendrils he learned off Namshiel using on him and tried on Shagnasty. He can boost that with soulfire (see: Shagnasty fight), and while I doubt he can get up to Namshiel's five wavelengths that are impossible to shield against, he might have progressed enough from TC to manage two or three.

The sleep spell the Gatekeeper used in TC is apparently not invasive enough to be black magic. If Harry can learn that, it's pretty much ideal for stopping an attacker without harm. Probably also a good idea to brush up on to subdue Justine long enough to set up an exorcism.

Offline b4utoo

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2021, 04:10:31 AM »
Personally if I was Harry I would act like the bad guy that you think I am and hold a hostage that Carlos would hold up on then Harry can disable Carlos let go the hostage and call it a day

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2021, 10:24:21 PM »
Depending on the nature of the fight, it could go a few ways.

I think Snark Knight you have described the situation where Carlos is sent to tell Harry off and it devolves into a duel. Depending on if Harry was being rational or not would be the decisive point. Harry as a raging beast is terrifying, sure. But he tends to win more fights when he is being cold and rational. Which I think is intentional on Jim's part. In terms of mechanics I think you are right pretty much, I think Harry could counter with things Carlos might be underprepared for. Like black magic - i.e. mind assaults. He might even be desperate enough. He could also attempt to just out-muscle Carlos in some way, because Carlos is weaker. And Harry is far more formidable in close-quarters due to his Winter Knight power.

Jim has sort of been a bit evasive on how water magic works, he often says it's a fairly passive or reactive form of magic. But then he shows Carlos wiping the floor with his entropy stuff. If Harry had learned some water magic from River Shoulders, he might be able to counter Ramirez more effectively. Just as fire can be extinguished by water, enough heat can vaporize it. They are each others counter in a sense. I think ice magic might be his best bet, as Carlos uses entropy a lot (disorder) so Harry might want to use energy (order). I know it seems counter but he might just be able to lock Ramirez down with it. Carlos also has horrible physical injuries that Harry could exploit. And if Harry had learned some shapeshifting from River Shoulders (maybe with some tips from Grey), he also might be able to use that to his advantage.

There are scenarios where it isn't just the two of them of course. Ramirez might have a team of Wardens, maybe including Luccio. Maybe even including Senior Council members. That alters things dramatically, tactically speaking. Harry might be alone, or in his Castle, or have Bob, or Mouse, or the Alphas, or Ebenezar (with or against), or some Winter Fae, or White Court Vampires, or Molly etc. Any combination of these would be interesting and require vastly different tactics. If the might of the whole White Council and their allies came down on Harry (like they did with Kemmler), unless Harry was fairly upgraded and had all his new allies (some of which are also supposedly White Council allies) Harry would get smashed. Jim has stated that a few times. Which isn't to say that there isn't a scenario where Harry wins either, but I suspect the Council would already be fragmenting and Harry would shatter them at their worst moment. I think this is what the Gatekeeper was referring to when he hinted at "Harry's hour".

« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 11:04:00 PM by Yuillegan »
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Offline Monkez

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2021, 10:37:38 PM »
A consistent theme in the Dresdenverse is that when given enough time to plan, Harry is pretty damn hard to beat in a fight. 

The mistake that the Carlos and the WC made is that it painted Harry into a corner and allowed him to *know* that he was painted in a corner.  Once Harry has time to heal and set up his new smart home, believe that Harry is starting to plan his contingencies against the Wardens, Carlos in particular. 

Also, everyone keeps underestimating Harry's intellect.  He encourages that by making a show of how physically strong and intimidating he is.  Hell, even Ebenezer was undone by his assumptions on Harry and that was just a few hours of planning (and a favor from the Winter Lady).  Nemesis said it best:  Harry doesn't look smart, so it's easy to underestimate him.

Besides, Harry is going to get some training from River Shoulders.  Methinks he may have some insights...  ;)
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Offline Monkez

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2021, 10:43:07 PM »
Harry might be alone, or in his Castle, or have Bob, or Mouse, or the Alphas, or Ebenezar (with or against), or some Winter Fae, or White Court Vampires, or Molly etc. ".

Good grief, I didn't even think about Bob or Bonnie.  If Harry figures out how to utilize Bob and Bonnie even half as well as Waldo, then the WC is greatly underestimating Harry and that is always a good thing for Harry.
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Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2021, 11:00:19 AM »
Lara 😉 such a filling meal..

Offline forumghost

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2021, 07:48:35 PM »
Good grief, I didn't even think about Bob or Bonnie.  If Harry figures out how to utilize Bob and Bonnie even half as well as Waldo, then the WC is greatly underestimating Harry and that is always a good thing for Harry.

If Harry had figured out how to do anything as good as Butters he'd be on the Senior Council already.

Butter's is allowed to do awesome things because he's Jim's favourite side character. Harry isn't because Harry is much easier to write around when he's an idiot.

Hence why he forgot potions existed between Fool Moon and Changes, for example.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 07:53:12 PM by forumghost »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2021, 09:47:20 PM »
Bob isn't a weapon and since whoever possesses him controls him, he isn't safe in the open.

Offline Arjan

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2021, 10:47:03 PM »
Bob isn't a weapon and since whoever possesses him controls him, he isn't safe in the open.
Harry did use Bob in Changes to protect Murphy.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2021, 11:37:45 PM »
Bob isn't a weapon and since whoever possesses him controls him, he isn't safe in the open.
Whoever possesses his skull/container specifically. And I'd argue he was highly effective in protecting Butters in Skin Game. In fact, he was instrumental in both Changes and Battle Ground against the most dangerous enemies.

If Harry had figured out how to do anything as good as Butters he'd be on the Senior Council already.

Butter's is allowed to do awesome things because he's Jim's favourite side character. Harry isn't because Harry is much easier to write around when he's an idiot.

Hence why he forgot potions existed between Fool Moon and Changes, for example.
This. Although I wouldn't necessarily say Butters is Jim's favourite character. I think Mab probably is.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2021, 01:48:27 AM »
Whoever possesses his skull/container specifically. And I'd argue he was highly effective in protecting Butters in Skin Game. In fact, he was instrumental in both Changes and Battle Ground against the most dangerous enemies.
Nicodemus is aware of him now because of Butters antics in Skin Game. As is Tessa.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2021, 01:58:59 AM »
Nicodemus is aware of him now because of Butters antics in Skin Game. As is Tessa.
Indeed, although I wouldn't be surprised if Nicodemus knew about Bob earlier. He was Kemmler's personal assistant. Not to mention Anduriel's power to listen and see through shadows...if they ever bothered to look at Harry or Kemmler it's possible they saw Bob already.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: What would be a counter to Carlos?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2021, 03:35:28 AM »
Being aware of Bob does not mean connecting all the dots. If Nicreally understood what Bob was we would have had an attempt to steal him. But a spirit supporting butters? That can be anything.
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