Margaret LeFay's plan. Who knew and how did they know?

[KurtinStGeorge]

There's a thread about Summer Knight foreshadowing which is about Aurora in SK and Morgan in his microfiction letter, both calling Harry a Destroyer.  What I have to say here is related but goes off on a tangent that deserves a separate discussion.

I think that while Martha Liberty does not use the word Destroyer; with the hindsight we have from reading Morgan's microfiction and what Aurora said about Harry in Summer Knight, Liberty strongly implies that is exactly what she meant when she says of Harry to Ebenezer, "You know what he was meant to be."  Also, Mother Winter described Harry as a weapon in Cold Days.  The way I read this passage is that Mother Winter wasn't referring to Harry as a thug who would kill anyone who pissed off Mab, she was saying that Harry was a weapon that was created with a deeper purpose in mind.   

So, for whatever purpose was envisioned for Harry, or whatever it is he is supposed to destroy, an awful lot of people know it.  Apparently Margaret LeFay wasn't very good at keeping Harry's purpose a secret.  It probably explains HWWB's interest in Harry when they first met and the reason why HWWBf kept saying "Send out the wizard" in Cold Days.  The Walkers wanted to turn Harry's purpose and ability to their own advantage.

To follow this idea a bit further; in Blood Rites Ebenezer told Harry that he and Margaret argued over some scheme she was working on with Lord Raith, and possibly Duchess Ariana of the Red Court.  Justin DuMorne was one of Margaret's associates so it seems likely that he was also aware of this plan.  Though at present this is just speculation, it seems to me that a solid guess is that Harry's birth, the timing of it, and its exact purpose are at the center of this scheme.

So look at the list of characters; besides LeFay, Raith and Arianna, who have some knowledge of the plan: Ebenezer McCoy, Martha Liberty, Donald Morgan; and if he knows Arthur Langtry must also know, Justin DuMorne, Summer Lady Aurora, Mother Winter, Mother Summer, and probably HWWB.  There are others who are also highly likely to be in the know, such as the Leanansidhe, Mab, and Titania.  This list might also be extended to Ancient Mai,  Aleron LaFortier and the Gatekeeper.  Finally, Captain Anastasia Luccio should be in the know.  You would think the head of the wizard's secret police would find out, whether or not the Senior Council would have officially informed her.

What I want to know is how did they all find out?  Did Ebenezer have to make a report to the Senior Council about this diner and what was said there?  That would explain the Senior Council members knowledge.  I could see Lea finding out directly from Margaret LeFay.  Justin may have also found out from Margaret or he may have had a hand in the planning.  It doesn't explain how the Summer and Winter Mother's, the Queens and Summer Lady found out.  It's possible Maeve was too lazy to keep herself informed, but then again perhaps she knew as well.  I suppose HWWB could have found out from anyone with knowledge of the plan who became nemfected.

When is Harry going to start asking questions about this?  I really hope Ebenezer has another conversation (or three) with Harry in the next book so we can start to get some answers.  Does anyone want to take a guess about how knowledge of the plan spread or guess at any other characters who may know; or might have known before their demise, about Harry the Destroyer? 

[morriswalters]

There may be two related plots happening to Harry at the same time.   Justin was trying to make him an enforcer per Ghost Story, but as far back as Turn Coat it been obvious to me that Jim appears to be setting up a time loop with Harry as the center.  Mab and Vadderung know about it because they are at the beginning where it starts. Rashid is aware as we find in Turn Coat when he tells Harry that it isn't his time to confront the Council. 

Rashid's awareness probably arises from his position as Gate Keeper. The Outer Gates do a lot of things per Rashid and the closest  thing in the books to date that reflects it's function is Little Chicago. There is an interesting exchange in Side Jobs with Luccio. First this,

“I’M SORRY, HARRY,” Captain Luccio said. “We don’t exactly have orbital satellites for detecting black magic.”

and then this.

“Too bad we don’t, eh?” I asked. “Unofficially—is there anyone who might know anything?”

“The Gatekeeper, perhaps. He has a gift for sensing problem areas.

When you look at the events in the books Rashid is like the little man on the stairs.

"Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there!
He wasn't there again today,
Oh how I wish he'd go away!"

The first time is in Summer Knight.

"What are you doing here?"

"Looking for you," he said.

"You've been watching?"

He shook his head. "Call it listening. But I have had glimpses of you. And matters are worsening in Chicago."

And then in Turn Coat.

“And I cannot permit you to openly challenge the White Council to battle.”

“No?” I asked, thrusting out my jaw. “Why not?”

His deep, resonant voice sounded troubled. “It is not yet your hour.”

I felt my eyebrows go up. “Not yet . . . ?”

Harry can't take a leak that Rashid is there looking over his shoulder. And he knows something is about to happen. The Gate is the ultimate McGuffin. It is in my opinion Little Chicago 2.  Now just for funsies compare these two passages.

Unnervingly, I could look up and see… myself, my actual, physical body, towering over the model city like Godzilla's hyperthyroid cousin.

Then Gard’s head snapped up, looking directly at where Mab currently stood, as if the little snow sculpture could somehow see the titanic form of the Winter Queen looking down upon her.

The time loop arises from Cold Days and Vadderung's statement to Harry.

“Can I do this?” I asked his back. “You can.” I made an exasperated sound. “How do you know?” Odin turned to look back at me with his gleaming eye, his teeth bared in a wolf’s smile, the scar on either side of his eye patch silver in the light coming through the door. “Perhaps,” he murmured, “you already have.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 217). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Harry is set to stop the end of the world. All those who know are trying to avoid f***ing up the time line and forcing a reboot aka like Groundhog Day. This is why everybody ducks when Harry asks questions. Jim is probably lying when he says that the guy in the cell is not Merlin. Which is true, per Obi Wan, in that Merlin is probably Harry.  All this is unbounded speculation. Is in all likelihood wrong and would get me thrown out of Speculators Anonymous.

And lest I forget, Rashid watches Eb et al as they fight their way back to the second trial in Proven Guilty, which is why he can throw the doors open at the appropriate moment, Rashid should not have left the Gates. This is one of the ways you know this book is about Harry.  Some other things that might be true.  Time stops at the Outer Gates.  This is how Rashid can be so old. And is why the Mother's don't come to parties at Harry's place.

[Yuillegan]

Agree with all of this.

I remember an interview from a while back where Jim was asked about whether Mab was the first Mab.

I was wondering if Mab was the first Winter Queen?
No.  Mab was not the first Mab.  Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth.  She was her sidekick and handmaiden.  And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too.  So she got to be much more powerful and awesome.  But that was a while back.  When that happened.  And the same thing with Titania.  The Winter Queens actually died.  The last time things got awful in the wizard world.  So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they’re a bit nervous.  They’re a bit nervous about Dresden.  Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden.  Mab is keeping her enemies close.

The bit in italics is what I want to focus on. You can understand some of Titania's behaviour towards Dresden considering some of the hints about him, not to mention he has already killed a Faerie Queen and involved in the death of two others.

But Mab keeping Dresden close...because he is her enemy. That's very Mab but what seems odd is that Dresden is Mab's enemy. Considering Mab's purpose is to protect the mortal world from Outsiders, and we know now that Dresden's starborn nature allows him power over the Outsiders (among other things), it suggests that somehow Dresden is related/connected to the Outsiders.

This would also fit in with Harry's Destroyer epithet.

So my guess, to answer your question KurtinStGeorge, is that all these people found out because Harry isn't totally unique - only that he is one possibility. Harry's nature is something that has been around for a long time. Harry isn't even the first. But he might be the worst potentially of his kind. Whatever they are.

The way Morgan makes it sound one would think that it's a bit like Hellboy or something. Dresden isn't yet the full monster until he chooses to be, at which point he would become some abomination. But he could also choose to not be - although likely there is a cost either way. Become a monster, lose free will. Give up the monster and lose your magic, maybe even his life.

I even have a theory that starborn's blood is required to open or close the Outer Gates or something similar. Something that allows a rebalancing of the field. That's why Ethniu has her own pet starborn. However, it's also why Drakul perhaps became a monster. He might be what Harry could become.

So the answer is that the people who know are aware because the starborn cycle happens every 666 years and they have the information on that. I think the whole Margaret Le Fay and co. plot was simply about exploiting the cycle of starborns.

[BrainFireBob]

My pet theory is that Thomas was a proof-of-concept of being able to guarantee a particular birth day by abusing relativity effects via use of the NeverNever- something only the child-bearing age Margaret had the skill to do. In short, she could guarantee a wizard-level talent starborn birth.

I rather think a lot of the suspicion of Harry is that others know she planned to do it on purpose working in tandem with dark beings. I suspect the big twist of the series is that Malcolm was selected as Harry's father specifically to alter the admixture and point living weapon Harry at those that betrayed her. Because she wasn't a nice lady. A bit Paul Muad'Dib- born too early and immune to control as a result (too much Atreides in him).

Regarding the time travel hypothesis: This is a major plot element in Wolfe's Urth of the New Sun. Severian is on a quest to restore the dying sun. He is interfered with by beings from the future who want to ensure his success or failure from futures where he succeeded/failed, including debatably the Severian that succeeded. As he notes at the end. "I am not the first Severian, but I can guess something of his story." Butcher could easily be aiming at such with Harry. No doubt in my mind he's familiar with Wolfe.

[Mira]

I rather think a lot of the suspicion of Harry is that others know she planned to do it on purpose working in tandem with dark beings. I suspect the big twist of the series is that Malcolm was selected as Harry's father specifically to alter the admixture and point living weapon Harry at those that betrayed her. Because she wasn't a nice lady. A bit Paul Muad'Dib- born too early and immune to control as a result (too much Atreides in him).

Malcolm as father is critical to what Margaret wanted to accomplish.  Over and over again all through the series we hear that Harry inherited his father's "good heart" or disposition.  Eb states that he'd never seen a purer or better soul, meeting Malcolm was a life changing event for Margaret. Because she loved him, she changed and was no longer destined to enter Chauncy's realm.  It is because of Malcolm that Harry will never turn into another Drakul or Listen.. I wouldn't be shocked if Rashid also met Malcolm somewhere along the way, that is a huge reason why he has often backed Harry.

[Yuillegan]

Malcolm as father is critical to what Margaret wanted to accomplish.  Over and over again all through the series we hear that Harry inherited his father's "good heart" or disposition.  Eb states that he'd never seen a purer or better soul, meeting Malcolm was a life changing event for Margaret. Because she loved him, she changed and was no longer destined to enter Chauncy's realm.  It is because of Malcolm that Harry will never turn into another Drakul or Listen.. I wouldn't be shocked if Rashid also met Malcolm somewhere along the way, that is a huge reason why he has often backed Harry.

Malcolm, and falling in love with Malcolm. I think the falling in love bit might have been the clincher.

[Mira]

Malcolm, and falling in love with Malcolm. I think the falling in love bit might have been the clincher.

Yes, and it did alter Margaret's plans, when she changed, what she wanted for mankind changed.  Those who'd used her, or thought they had to create a "destroyer" to be wielded as need be, got Harry instead, just as dangerous, but not with the predictable agenda, nor theirs' to control.

[Arjan]

She touched my face again and said, "I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone. I hope that one day you will forgive me my mistake. But know that I am proud of what you have become. I love you, child."

That is not about being a destroyer, that is about repairing or protecting. About responsibility.

[Mira]

That is not about being a destroyer, that is about repairing or protecting. About responsibility.

Exactly, and that is what those who'd use Harry, i.e. Justin, or the White Council don't understand.  Not even Eb I think fully understands what his daughter's motives were.. But then if he understood her from the beginning we wouldn't be at this point.

[Arjan]

Exactly, and that is what those who'd use Harry, i.e. Justin, or the White Council understands.  Not even Eb I think fully understands what his daughter's motives were.. But then if he understood her from the beginning we wouldn't be at this point.

Do you mean don’t understand?

I think the gatekeeper always understood that it could go both ways. That is why he was prepared both to help and to kill Harry. But cold days put him definitely on Harry’s side.

[Mira]

Do you mean don’t understand?

I think the gatekeeper always understood that it could go both ways. That is why he was prepared both to help and to kill Harry. But cold days put him definitely on Harry’s side.

Yeah, I meant don't understand, sorry about that, got distracted by Gabby, she was demanding her quota of Temptations, her favorite cat treats..

[Arjan]

Ah the local goddess demands worship.

[Mira]

Ah the local goddess demands worship.

Indeed...   And her demanding MEOW can make the Eye of Baylor seem like a mere flashlight!