Author Topic: The Denarians are the good guys?  (Read 8379 times)

Offline Shift8

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The Denarians are the good guys?
« on: April 25, 2021, 07:50:07 AM »
I think it might be possible that the fallen and the Denarians are actually the good guys, and we will find this out as a major plot twist. I think its pretty odd that the goals of the denarians are shrouded in mystery, and that the only real information have on them is that Nic thinks he is working to save the world.

But what if he actually is? Up to this point the story, the Denarians have always been assumed to be evil because they are associated with the big bad of Christian mythology and their methods appear to be unjustifiable under any circumstances.

But we dont really know what their angle is. Nic must have some reason he thinks he is saving the world. Dont get me wrong, clearly many people have thought this in reality and been completely delusional. And Nic and the gang are probably no different.

BUT

what if the White God is actually the villain of the story? What if the fallen rebelled for a reason? What if their methods are justified because if they lose, the outsiders break into reality and turn it into well....hell. I mean, why is it that if the White God is actually "god" that it appears to lack sufficient power to solve the outsider problem on its own? Why does the Winter Court have to act as a bulwark agaisnt it?

I wonder if the outsiders breaching into reality is the apocalypse of Christian mythology, which the White God is actively trying to bring about. It has acquired immense power because it has the most believers, while gradually reducing the power of the other magical beings in the DV, which will eventually make it easier to let the outsiders in.

Offline Avernite

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2021, 07:56:20 AM »
It sounds like utter nonsense, but okay, I understand this is a bit an out-there theory.

The reason it sounds like utter nonsense is because the series, from day one, has been all about "self-sacrifice good, other-sacrifice bad". Harry started a war with the Reds, and murdered them all, because he could not stand to sacrifice Susan (but of course in the end he still did to save his daughter, and we got a whole book explaining how Harry may not have been doing quite great things there - even if the end result was alright).

The Denarians, of course, torture people into being their slaves. We saw this in the very first interaction, when Harry soul-gazed one of their slaves. We saw them being evil when Shiro sacrificed himself to save Harry from them - the guy wanted to start a pandemic. We saw them try to torture Marcone and Ivy into being their slave/ally, and shoot Michael, arguably the best good guy on the field.

Only once, when Marcone stabbed Ethniu, did a Denarian do something directly useful without being a backstabby git about it.

So: no. The Denarians are not misunderstood. They're Evil. Maybe not world-destroying Evil, only lives-destroying Evil, but still Evil.

Offline Shift8

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2021, 08:03:56 AM »

The Denarians, of course, torture people into being their slaves. We saw this in the very first interaction, when Harry soul-gazed one of their slaves. We saw them being evil when Shiro sacrificed himself to save Harry from them - the guy wanted to start a pandemic. We saw them try to torture Marcone and Ivy into being their slave/ally, and shoot Michael, arguably the best good guy on the field.

Only once, when Marcone stabbed Ethniu, did a Denarian do something directly useful without being a backstabby git about it.

So: no. The Denarians are not misunderstood. They're Evil. Maybe not world-destroying Evil, only lives-destroying Evil, but still Evil.

So yeah, all of this is pretty evil at face value. And I generally assumed they were the bad guys. But IF they are trying to stop hell on earth than really anything is justifiable. Just think about the horror of that situation for a moment. The way the outsiders are described, if they breached into reality in force it would be literal hell. Imagine for a moment that this would mean something as horrifying as the hell mythology of Christianity.

Literally any means, if necessary, would be legitimate to stop it. Anything bad you did to anyone in order to stop it from happening would be better than what would happen to them if the outsiders got in. And if you deigned not to do dastardly deeds to stop it from happening, both you and your victims would be in a unfathomable worse predicament anyhow. Its an absurdly horrifying set of stakes, but it is what it is.

Your mention of the pandemic got me thinking. What if their goal is to do horrifying things that will make people lose their faith in the WG due to the problem of evil and therefore reduce his power and take away his ability to bring about the apocalypse?

Offline Arjan

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2021, 10:15:09 AM »
Several books show that their evil is not just evil. It is unnecessary and often counter productive. Harry’s plans for defeating them both in small favor and skin game were based on the idea that Nicodemus would betray him even if it was in Nicodemus best interest not to do so.

Mab has a purpose and if she does something it is because of that purpose. There may be better ways to serve that purpose and if Molly finds it she will listen.

The purpose of the fallen is evil. Or another way of saying it it in to facilitate free will by giving you an alternative.

They might assist if reality is really in danger but their idea about what reality should be is not that nice and if the danger is not that immediate they will only get in the way.
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Offline Shift8

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2021, 10:51:36 AM »
Several books show that their evil is not just evil.


The theory I proposed means that acts that seem evil wouldn't be. If they really are trying to stop the White God by reducing his believer counts so that he cannot bring about hell, than pretty much anything is justified.






The purpose of the fallen is evil. Or another way of saying it it in to facilitate free will by giving you an alternative.



I dont recall the books every saying this. And anyway I have hard time seeing how this could make any logical sense. If humans have free will, they dont need someone else to point out to them the alternatives. Humans can come up with evil ideas all on their own. Also who would have given them this purpose? If it was the White God that would make him more than a bit a douche, so he would still be the villain.

Offline Mira

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2021, 11:44:07 AM »
Quote
I dont recall the books every saying this. And anyway I have hard time seeing how this could make any logical sense. If humans have free will, they dont need someone else to point out to them the alternatives. Humans can come up with evil ideas all on their own. Also who would have given them this purpose? If it was the White God that would make him more than a bit a douche, so he would still be the villain.

Easily,  things aren't going well, a human gets tempted to do stuff against the rules.  It is called temptation, we have free will to be led or not..  The Denarians are on the sidelines whispering, "why not go for it?"  There is a line in a prayer that goes like this, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.."

Offline Arjan

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2021, 01:11:12 PM »
The theory I proposed means that acts that seem evil wouldn't be. If they really are trying to stop the White God by reducing his believer counts so that he cannot bring about hell, than pretty much anything is justified.




I dont recall the books every saying this. And anyway I have hard time seeing how this could make any logical sense. If humans have free will, they dont need someone else to point out to them the alternatives. Humans can come up with evil ideas all on their own. Also who would have given them this purpose? If it was the White God that would make him more than a bit a douche, so he would still be the villain.
Of course he is if he created everything. All powerful means all responsible. 

Unless he is restricted in his power of course but both heaven and hell seem to operate in a system of rules commanded from top down. The fallen are allowed to tempt us within certain restrictions. That means there is a purpose for that. Most likely that purpose has something to do with free will.

And what do you expect. He is a cat.
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Offline Mira

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2021, 01:47:05 PM »
Quote
And what do you expect. He is a cat.

I thought cats were Denarians...

Offline Arjan

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2021, 04:48:27 PM »
I thought cats were Denarians...
Impossible. Did you see their battle forms? What cat will sacrifice its natural grace and beauty to become a deformed mantis or a deranged bear? They have nothing to offer.
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Offline Mira

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2021, 05:27:14 PM »
Impossible. Did you see their battle forms? What cat will sacrifice its natural grace and beauty to become a deformed mantis or a deranged bear? They have nothing to offer.

You got to admit though they love to toy with their victims before they kill them..

Offline Arjan

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2021, 05:34:53 PM »
You got to admit though they love to toy with their victims before they kill them..
Which they can only do so stylishly in their natural form.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2021, 05:38:39 PM »
So yeah, all of this is pretty evil at face value. And I generally assumed they were the bad guys. But IF they are trying to stop hell on earth than really anything is justifiable.

I think they've convinced the hosts that they allow to maintain some semblance of independence, like Nic and Deirdre, of that principle. The Fallen may even believe it themselves (though I suspect there are almost as many different beliefs and reasons for falling as there are fallen, so perhaps I should say some of them might believe it).

The issue is, what if there's a less destructive way to avoid the outsider victory and empty night?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if how to deal with the Outsiders is one of the central disputes in DV cosmology between TWG and the Fallen. The 'good' side is willing to take a substantial risk of losing in pursuit of a win with minimal damage to creation. The Fallen think TWG is recklessly risking everything on a long shot because He is too sentimental about breaking his creations. They instead embrace a scorched earth policy, where good odds of saving a badly damaged something are better than poor odds of saving almost everything. I'd further guess that opinions on whether the stupid primates are worth risking their own immortal butts for are a significant factor in where each angel comes down on that question.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2021, 09:34:41 PM »
I think they've convinced the hosts that they allow to maintain some semblance of independence, like Nic and Deirdre, of that principle. The Fallen may even believe it themselves (though I suspect there are almost as many different beliefs and reasons for falling as there are fallen, so perhaps I should say some of them might believe it).

The issue is, what if there's a less destructive way to avoid the outsider victory and empty night?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if how to deal with the Outsiders is one of the central disputes in DV cosmology between TWG and the Fallen. The 'good' side is willing to take a substantial risk of losing in pursuit of a win with minimal damage to creation. The Fallen think TWG is recklessly risking everything on a long shot because He is too sentimental about breaking his creations. They instead embrace a scorched earth policy, where good odds of saving a badly damaged something are better than poor odds of saving almost everything. I'd further guess that opinions on whether the stupid primates are worth risking their own immortal butts for are a significant factor in where each angel comes down on that question.

Very well put, but I'd like to talk about Nicodemus for a bit.

I found a partial parallel to Nicodemus in a biography of a dictator I recently read (I won't name this individual because of potential touchy topics), who believed that all the pain and suffering he was unleashing would be worthwhile because he was in the process of creating a better society that would create "better human beings."  I don't mean physically superior humans.  This dictator believed that human nature itself could be altered for the better.  This person was highly intelligent, driven, at times brilliant, but also highly egotistical, dismissive of anyone who even slightly disagreed with him, ruthless, uncaring of others or their suffering and absolutely convinced that he was right and that his cause was a righteous one.  He's not reviled today to the degree that he probably should be, because another who came after him was far, far worse. (You might be able to guess who I'm talking about, but if you can't and really want to know just message me.  I highly recommend that biography of him that I read.) 

Nicodemus has many of the same traits I mentioned above.  The primary difference is that Nicodemus is a psychopath who is superficially more suave, polite and sophisticated than the historical dictator I mentioned above and Nicodemus he can fake a congeniality that really doesn't exist.  Also, I suspect that if Jim fully revealed his backstory to us, we would find that beneath his façade Nicodemus hides a deep contempt for humanity that existed before he ever touched one of the coins.  Anduriel probably didn't have to do much to manipulate Nicodemus, just highlight Nic's worst tendencies to nudge him in the right direction. 

The parallel primarily exists in the both the real person and Nicodemus' fanatical belief in the ends justifying the means.  When Harry once sarcastically said to Nicodemus, "Your a saint, Nic," Nicodemus responded, "One day."  Now that's belief that the cause you support is not only truly righteous, anything you do to achieve your goal is worthy of the highest praise.     
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2021, 10:01:10 PM »
If someone like HP Lovecraft were writing this series then not only would your theory be likely, but the whole "TWG is a rebel Old One" theory be likely as well.

However, it is Jim Butcher writing this series and as much as he likes to play cons on the audience, I doubt he is setting up TWG as the villain. Aside from Jim's personal beliefs, as others have pointed out actions speak louder than words, and the actions on behalf of TWG seem to be far more ethical than those of Hell and the Denarians (which are not necessarily on the same side entirely).

The problem of evil is always a difficult philosophical issue, as there is no easy answer. The answer that makes the most sense for the series is that TWG is not all-powerful and therefore cannot deal with the Outsiders on its own. Anything else could imply a level of negligence or insanity or sadism.

Power restrictions are a constant theme of the series and I don't see why TWG wouldn't have its own restrictions on what it could do.

I agree with Snark Knight's theory on some of the possible motives of the Denarians, and that the cause of the War in Heaven and the Fall is largely to do with the Outsider problem.

Shift8, the ends justifying the means is a very dangerous philosophy. As is utilitarianism. They are not to be treated lightly. Many leaders who thought their actions were right embraced these ideas and often became the worst dictators and monsters. Which isn't to say those philosophical ideas are entirely devoid of merit either, it's just that they must be balanced with other ideas.

For instance, you say that the Denarians might believe that any means necessary to stop the Outsiders win is acceptable. Mab also may believe this btw, based on some of Jim's comments. But the problem with say, torturing Shiro to save the world is that poor old Shiro still pays the price. Should Shiro have to eat dirt, unwillingly, so that we all might benefit? He might choose to sacrifice himself (as he did for Harry), but was he told his torture would save humanity? Did he get a choice there? Could the Denarians have achieved their goals around saving Earth from the Outsiders without torturing Shiro? All legitimate questions.

So no, I don't yet believe that TWG is the bad guy. But I will say it would be an interesting series, in another series perhaps.

It reminds me a bit of His Dark Materials, God (called the Authority) is actually just the first Angel and lied about his deity status (although he is very powerful). Another Angel later (called Xaphania) discovers this and leads a rebellion. It is initially unsuccessful and like the Fallen in most stories they stay in conflict with Heaven. The Church is also generally evil, and the Authority is a tyrant. Also contains a multiverse in that series, but only one set of Angels. The world of the dead is a prison camp for souls. And there are weird Outsider-esque monsters called Wraiths. It's a fairly interesting series mostly told from the point of view of children, although the story can be a bit slow at times. They made a movie out of it (which wasn't very good) although the new television show seems better (I have only seen the first episode but it seemed much closer to the books). Worth checking out the series in one form or another if you like those kind of flipped ideas.
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Offline Shift8

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Re: The Denarians are the good guys?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2021, 10:36:39 PM »


Shift8, the ends justifying the means is a very dangerous philosophy. As is utilitarianism. They are not to be treated lightly. Many leaders who thought their actions were right embraced these ideas and often became the worst dictators and monsters. Which isn't to say those philosophical ideas are entirely devoid of merit either, it's just that they must be balanced with other ideas.




Any moral philosophy can be bad if incorrectly applied. Ontology gets abused as much as the other two, more so quite frankly. I have met more people in my life whose rigid belief that lying is always unethical regardless of the circumstances (almost like a certain character in the Dresden files...) is more dangerous than most utilitarians I have met.

Anyhow. This is a fairly cut and dry case, from the perspective I was laying out. If it really is the case that the White God gaining more followers may lead to it becoming powerful enough to let the outsiders in, than ANY necessary means is justified. We dont know that what the Denarians are doing is necessary. But it could end up being the case that their approach is the only practical one. It isnt that hard to imagine circumstances that would justify extremely Machiavellian actions to prevent a literal hell on earth via the outsiders.

It is entirely possible, probable even, that the Denarians are what the seem. A bunch of evil lunatics. I just think its extremely interesting from a narrative point of view that we havent been told precisely what made the Fallen in the DV rebel. And I dont think its past Jim to do something like this. The time we have spent with Harry as the Winter Knight has made it much less clear that Mab is evil for example.