Are Fae Queens still mortals?

[Arjan]

Why does it have to be a "moral choice" to count?  You can make a choice without thinking but that puts someone else in a position where they have to make a moral choice.  So your answer of "so what" is the answer a sociopath would give.

Thinking is only relevant if you have information to think about and that includes the effect your decision has on others. If you have no information about that how can that decision be sociopathic?

Every decision is made upon the expected results both for yourself and for everyone else.

But her choices got her the point where she was in position to be possessed by the mantle of the Winter Lady.  Totally informed choices?  No, but how many choices do we make on a daily bases that are fully informed?  We often make uninformed choices because we choose to, it is the easiest to do and seem harmless, only sometimes they are not.  That is where the expression, "looking back you can see things with 20/20 vision."  "If only," is another one, as my old father used to say, "if is half of life."  Informed verses uninformed choices, to quote you, "so what?"  Choices are choices..

The point is that Molly did not make the choice tot become the winter lady unlike some other transformations. No first sexual encounter or first blood.

Of course she made decisions that made it possible like not jumping in front of a train but at the end the mantle was just forced upon her because she was a compatible host.

[Mira]

The point is that Molly did not make the choice tot become the winter lady unlike some other transformations. No first sexual encounter or first blood.

Really?  Her first choices ended her up in Arctus Tor, you don't see a connection between that and her eventually becoming Winter Lady?

Thinking is only relevant if you have information to think about and that includes the effect your decision has on others. If you have no information about that how can that decision be sociopathic?

Simply this the effect on others is always something you have to take into consideration no matter how much or how little information you have at the time.  If you don't care, well, that is sociopathic.

Of course she made decisions that made it possible like not jumping in front of a train but at the end the mantle was just forced upon her because she was a compatible host.

No, she was groomed, Mab admitted that, Molly's decisions had something to do with that. 
The mantle jumped into Molly, it didn't jump into Murphy who was also nearby.

[LostInTime]

Free will does not mean that everything that happens to you is somehow your choice. Being born was not your choice.other people make choices too.

Sure with some verbal gymnastics you can say that Molly chose to go to the island or you can point to several other choices she made in the past that lead to it but often what happens to you is not your choice, only how you handle it. Molly decided to take the job seriously

This is the "Sins of the Father" argument. The children bear the weight of everything their parents do. There's no way to make a fresh start and vendettas never end.

[LostInTime]

No, she was groomed, Mab admitted that, Molly's decisions had something to do with that. 
The mantle jumped into Molly, it didn't jump into Murphy who was also nearby.

The mantle could have also jumped back to Mab. As Rhuel's Summer Knight mantle jumped back to Aurora when Rhuel was murdered by Slate.

[Mira]

The mantle could have also jumped back to Mab. As Rhuel's Summer Knight mantle jumped back to Aurora when Rhuel was murdered by Slate.

You're right, forgotten that. 

[morriswalters]

It's hard to assign blame in terms of Molly's early choices.  She didn't make them in a vacuum, she was pushed by someone.  Sandra Marling in point of fact.  Later in Skin Games Uriel will say this about Nic's henchmen, they didn't fall, they were pushed. Molly was caught up in a plot to kill Harry, that landed her at Arctis Tor.

[Arjan]

Really?  Her first choices ended her up in Arctus Tor, you don't see a connection between that and her eventually becoming Winter Lady?

Only in the sense that if you take the first bridge in stead of the second someone is going to molest you. Maybe because you decided to wear the red shirt in stead of the black one or the other way round.

Her first choices were wrong for other reasons but were partly because no one decided to educate her. It is not just her choices, sometimes things are chosen for you.

Simply this the effect on others is always something you have to take into consideration no matter how much or how little information you have at the time.  If you don't care, well, that is sociopathic.

That is only possible if you have information. Maybe the red shirt will be painful for someone’s eyes. At the moment you pick a shirt you don’t care and throw a dice. That does not mean you don’t care if you have more information About the consequences of your choices. But you need to have information to do so.

No, she was groomed, Mab admitted that, Molly's decisions had something to do with that.

But did she know and what could she have done and when? If you knew about the troll under the bridge you could have taken the other one.

Mab decided to groom her, that was not her decision.

It is easy to say everything is because of your own choices but more difficult to identify the meaningful choices someone made, his real errors and not his bad luck.
 

The mantle jumped into Molly, it didn't jump into Murphy who was also nearby.

Sure but Molly did not know. There were a lot of fae around for the mantle to choose. She might not even have known that the ladies could die let alone two of them. You have to be aware of the danger to make a choice to avoid it. We and Harry and Molly were not aware.

You could say she decided to go to the island. She knew she could die there but that is not the same. She also knew she could help people. The moral right choice was to go. And that was the information she had.

[LostInTime]

Choice plays such a big part in mortal affairs, that stripping someone of their free will by saddling them with a mantle seems sure to draw down the response of The White God.

Especially if we find out at the end that it was Hecate evading TWG's edict to give up their immortality or withdraw from the mortal world. My theory is that she did both, and didn't. We'll find out when Mother Winter (Hecate?) spills the beans.

[Arjan]

Choice plays such a big part in mortal affairs, that stripping someone of their free will by saddling them with a mantle seems sure to draw down the response of The White God.

Especially if we find out at the end that it was Hecate evading TWG's edict to give up their immortality or withdraw from the mortal world. My theory is that she did both, and didn't. We'll find out when Mother Winter (Hecate?) spills the beans.

From the interaction between Harry, Uriel and Molly I do not get the impression that Uriel is saddened by Molly's new job. Sure she is not mortal anymore but maybe Uriel and Molly can have lunch together.

[Avernite]

Maybe the Fae Queens can be human if they act human, same as Harry can act pretty inhuman and become the mantle, or be a decent person.

In that case, Molly's appointment as Winter Lady is maybe a Uriel plot (okay he claims he doesn't do much, but really, who buys that?) to overthrow the inhumanity of the fae and make them more humane (but still tough). Mab's solution is acceptable; the Molly solution would be better. And sacrificing her life for a cause, if she at the point of decision knows what she's doing, is a perfectly godly thing; TWC did the same, supposedly.

[Mira]

Sure but Molly did not know. There were a lot of fae around for the mantle to choose. She might not even have known that the ladies could die let alone two of them. You have to be aware of the danger to make a choice to avoid it. We and Harry and Molly were not aware.

Maybe on the details surrounding Mab's motives as far as her training goes, however having said that after her kidnapping to Actus Tor or the fact that she assisted Harry's suicide so he wouldn't have to become Mab's Winter Knight, she should have been wary of training with "Auntie Lea."

[BrainFireBob]

While possible Butcher did not think it through, it's quite possible this is the origin of the "no lying" restriction that at least the Sidhe are under.

To whit: They have to tell you the truth if you ask. Don't think to ask, make an uninformed choice, that's your problem.

Really, all this wrangling about Molly boils down to: What choice did she make that made her "vulnerable"? Did she have to choose to accept the mantle when it came to her, and so that's just not onscreen because it was internal? Was it that she didn't sever her relationship with Harry when he became Winter Knight?

Personally, I think it was accepting Lea's offer to continue her education. The way Butcher is structuring the deals, Harry the Winter Knight is a legally distinct being from Harry the Wizard. Harry the Wizard had a contract with Molly the Apprentice. By accepting Lea's offer to stand-in, Molly was accepting expanding Molly-apprentice-to-Harry-the-Wizard to Molly-apprentice-to-Harry-the-Winter-Knight.  This put her in the chain of command of Winter:

Mother Winter->Mab->Maeve->Harry->Harry's Apprentice

Enough "vulnerability" for the Mantle.

[BrainFireBob]

 Sure but Molly did not know. There were a lot of fae around for the mantle to choose. She might not even have known that the ladies could die let alone two of them. You have to be aware of the danger to make a choice to avoid it. We and Harry and Molly were not aware.

Couple of items on this.

1) None of the three Ladies we've seen get a mantle were Fey. Two were changelings (mortal+potential) one pure mortal. So full Fae being around may not "count" as far as the mantle is concerned- much like the Knights.
2) You are confusing/equating "choice" and "informed choice"- even so far as "fully informed choice." When a child doesn't eat peas, it doesn't mean they are rejecting their health benefits- it's a choice, not a fully informed one.

As I noted in my previous, this would explain the Sidhe requirement to tell the truth and their instinct to deceive anyway. If you ask the right question, they will clearly lay out the bargain. It is up to you to make good choices.

Not the modern European idea of selling, but the ancient Middle Eastern- if you unwind your silk and find that a yard in it was cotton, that's on you for paying for it, not the seller for deceiving you. Let the buyer beware and be wary. It's a more ancient idea of how selling and trading was done.

[Mira]

Not the modern European idea of selling, but the ancient Middle Eastern- if you unwind your silk and find that a yard in it was cotton, that's on you for paying for it, not the seller for deceiving you. Let the buyer beware and be wary. It's a more ancient idea of how selling and trading was done.

^ This is why one should never bargain with the Fae..   How often have we heard Mab or Lea say they cannot lie, they didn't trick, but, "it is your fault, dumb mortal because you didn't read the fine print or ask the right questions about the condition of the bargain."  To put it bluntly, "you got exactly what you asked for, no more, no less..  Not my fault you never fully educated yourself before you agreed to our bargain. So, live with it!"

[LostInTime]

I don't know why this didn't occur to me earlier. The tell to the truth that fae queens are mortals still is in Peace Talks.

Molly says she could cross the circle. But she'd leave the fae mantle behind. Since it's much more invasive than Harry's mantle, what came out on the other side wouldn't be 'right'. This makes sense since her mantle conveys immortality, and Harry's doesn't.

In Cold Days, Maeve was killed on Halloween, despite being an 'immortal'. Kringle comments later that Halloween is a day when mantles can be put on or discarded. It's the day when Vaddrung dons his Kringle mantle. That means on at least two days of the year, there's a width between the mortals wearing them and the mantles. Why two days you ask? Because Mab gave Harry a conditional suggestion in Battle Ground that if she should die that night, then Harry should kill Molly. It was the Summer Solstice, a cosmologically important day of the year. A day when 'the stars were aligned'.

The mantles are immortal. They convey that immortality to the mortals wearing them. But there are days when that protection is not absolute.

The fae queens are mortal.