How Murphy could return to the Dresden Files

[bigdangmoose]

I forgot about this scenario being thrown out there by Jim a few years back. A book with Harry being in a mental hospital, like an episode of Buffy the vampire slayer.

If that book gets written, I could see Murphy coming back for that book because Harry's mortal memory of her would be flimsy, opening up a way through for her to Harry. Like how the wall to the nevernever became flimsy in GP

[ntribley]

I found it a little strange how Rudolph just seemed to disappear after his post-Murphy encounter with Dresden. I mean, he was pretty beaten up, both physically and mentally. And suddenly he’s just gone? Who helped him and why? Neither Sanya nor Butters did.

What if Rudolph’s killing Murphy was a “Mirror Mirror” action. We’ve already been given hints of things that are never explained in prior books, such as Little Chicago suddenly being fixed before Harry used it the first time. Another was that drive-by accident whose perpetrators were never explained. Butcher has already hinted that eventually Harry will break all of the Council’s laws. What if - in order to stop the alt-Harry’s antics, he has to go back in time, and changes something such that Rudolph, or possibly alt-Rudolph- doesn’t kill Murphy. When Harry returns to the present timeline, Murphy is back, having never died. Her showing up again might also derail Mab’s plan for Harry to marry Lara.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I found it a little strange how Rudolph just seemed to disappear after his post-Murphy encounter with Dresden. I mean, he was pretty beaten up, both physically and mentally. And suddenly he’s just gone? Who helped him and why? Neither Sanya nor Butters did.

What if Rudolph’s killing Murphy was a “Mirror Mirror” action. We’ve already been given hints of things that are never explained in prior books, such as Little Chicago suddenly being fixed before Harry used it the first time. Another was that drive-by accident whose perpetrators were never explained. Butcher has already hinted that eventually Harry will break all of the Council’s laws. What if - in order to stop the alt-Harry’s antics, he has to go back in time, and changes something such that Rudolph, or possibly alt-Rudolph- doesn’t kill Murphy. When Harry returns to the present timeline, Murphy is back, having never died. Her showing up again might also derail Mab’s plan for Harry to marry Lara.

The problem I have with this idea goes back to a very popular 1980's TV series called Dallas.  I never watched Dallas, with the exception of when I was dating this young women who was a big fan of the show.  Normally, she would record an episode if we were going out, but I remember one night coming back to her place and she wanted to watch this major episode before anything else.  It was an episode which would bring back a popular character from the dead.  This episode received enough build up and advertising that I knew what it was about before it aired.  So I watched it with her.  I expected the character's death had been faked, or the character had been declared dead prematurely, his life had secretly been saved but he remained in hiding for a year to uncover some nefarious scheme.  It was a soap opera after all.  Instead it turned out that Bobby Ewing's death had just been a bad dream.  Talk about bad ideas.  I seem to recall that not only did this episode bring Bobby back to life but it wiped out the entire previous season of the show.

The problem with time travel fixing Rudolph and preventing Murphy's death is that it would look like Harry just had a bad dream.  Also, I'm would guess that Murphy was fated to die that night.  If Rudolph doesn't shoot her something else would have. 

[Arjan]

Fate does exist in the dresdenverse and trying to evade it using your free will is something Uriel is quite positive about but Gard in dead beat had different point of view that might be equally valid.

[Mira]

The problem I have with this idea goes back to a very popular 1980's TV series called Dallas.  I never watched Dallas, with the exception of when I was dating this young women who was a big fan of the show.  Normally, she would record an episode if we were going out, but I remember one night coming back to her place and she wanted to watch this major episode before anything else.  It was an episode which would bring back a popular character from the dead.  This episode received enough build up and advertising that I knew what it was about before it aired.  So I watched it with her.  I expected the character's death had been faked, or the character had been declared dead prematurely, his life had secretly been saved but he remained in hiding for a year to uncover some nefarious scheme.  It was a soap opera after all.  Instead it turned out that Bobby Ewing's death had just been a bad dream.  Talk about bad ideas.  I seem to recall that not only did this episode bring Bobby back to life but it wiped out the entire previous season of the show.

The problem with time travel fixing Rudolph and preventing Murphy's death is that it would look like Harry just had a bad dream.  Also, I'm would guess that Murphy was fated to die that night.  If Rudolph doesn't shoot her something else would have. 

Yes, and it cheapened the show.  Murphy died a pretty stupid death, not a way she'd want to go out at all I think, if she had to go.  But she is gone, let her rest, as Gard said, she has earned it. 

[HavokVonFaust]

There has been a lot of talk about Murphy in the Barabbas Curse thread.  I thought I'd add a different angle to that conversation and give it a more appropriate setting.

Yes, Karrin Murphy is dead; but I'm calling it now, we will see her again.  Jim has already given readers who were upset at her departure the cryptic remark that they will have to "see what happens."  Of course, some of them my decide not to wait and stop reading the series.  That's their choice to make, what I'm writing is for those who will continue reading the series.  So how will Murphy return to the Dresden Files beyond being a memory?  I see at least three possible scenarios, besides a possible appearance in the Mirror Mirror world.

1.  Ragnarok is not as far in the future as you; and apparently Ms. Gard, thinks it is.  In this scenario Odin knows his time is coming to an end and calls in the favor that Harry owes him to take care of some unfinished business.  The rule about einherjar not being seen until after the memory of them has disappeared goes out the window because it's an all hands on deck situation.  So Einherjar Murphy works as Odin's liaison with Dresden, helping him accomplish whatever it is Odin wants to get done.  The problem with this scenario is built into Norse mythology.  When Ragnarok occurs, all the einherjar die along with Odin.  So, Harry would get to lose Murphy twice.  Yea, I'm not seeing that as a fan favorite idea, and I'm pretty sure Jim would realize that and not go there.

2. Ragnarok will not take place anytime in the near future, but Odin needs to get something done in the near term and the person best qualified is the Winter Knight, so Odin calls in his favor.  Ordinarily, this wouldn't involve Harry getting to see Murphy, but this favor can only be accomplished in Asgard or maybe Valhalla.  Harry has been to one afterlife, so why not another one?  Odin's rule isn't violated because Murphy doesn't go back to earth, Harry goes to her and gets to work with her again.  This is a rather bittersweet scenario because it's a one and done affair.  This scenario could happen, but I don't think it would make fans very happy; plus, I don't really see the point of having Murphy back one last time.  I doubt Jim would consider it.

3.  This should be really easy to guess.  Sure, an einherjar can't return to earth until their memory has faded from living memory, but I don't remember Gard saying anything about this rule applying to valkyries.  Karrin Murphy doesn't really fit the berserker stereotype.  I can't picture Murphy ever joyfully charging into battle against Jotuns, even with a rocket launcher.  Murphy as a valkyrie, that I can picture.  I even have a long scenario how this could happen, but there's no need to go into that.  The beauty of this scenario is Murphy doesn't have to be in every book.  She can be off doing jobs for Odin most of the time.  When she gives Harry advice it could be practical advice because she is now a real player in the supernatural game.

What do you think?     

I think the answer is a lot simpler:

Kim has stated that Harry will brake all 7 laws at one point. I think he'll bring her back.

[Mira]

I found it a little strange how Rudolph just seemed to disappear after his post-Murphy encounter with Dresden. I mean, he was pretty beaten up, both physically and mentally. And suddenly he’s just gone? Who helped him and why? Neither Sanya nor Butters did.

What if Rudolph’s killing Murphy was a “Mirror Mirror” action. We’ve already been given hints of things that are never explained in prior books, such as Little Chicago suddenly being fixed before Harry used it the first time. Another was that drive-by accident whose perpetrators were never explained. Butcher has already hinted that eventually Harry will break all of the Council’s laws. What if - in order to stop the alt-Harry’s antics, he has to go back in time, and changes something such that Rudolph, or possibly alt-Rudolph- doesn’t kill Murphy. When Harry returns to the present timeline, Murphy is back, having never died. Her showing up again might also derail Mab’s plan for Harry to marry Lara.

But she may not be the Murphy that Harry loves, she could turn out to still be a cop, a hard nosed one at that.  Like the original Murphy, though she worked with Harry on cases, she was also quick to jump to conclusions and point the finger at Harry in at least two books.

[g33k]

... Kim has stated that Harry will brake all 7 laws at one point. I think he'll bring her back.

I suspect that either raising Sue, or the horde of vengeful spectres that took down Bianca, counts as "raising the dead."

He already got away with a killing, when he took out Justin.

Only 5 more to go!!!   

[Mira]

I suspect that either raising Sue, or the horde of vengeful spectres that took down Bianca, counts as "raising the dead."

He already got away with a killing, when he took out Justin.

Only 5 more to go!!!   

Also skating on very thin ice when he and Molly sparred mentally..

[g33k]

Also skating on very thin ice when he and Molly sparred mentally..

I don't think so, but maybe...?
They were working on developing their mental defenses; the only way to do that is by defending against mental attacks.  The "win condition" was a specific mental image, nothing with mental controls or outside impulses.

Now... could a very-subtle mind-mage like Molly have slipped some low-key "extras" in, unnoticed in the face of the larger contest?  Likely, to be honest.  I suspect that she did not, but I don't think we can be sure.

The whole practice (of practicing mental defenses (and thus of practicing mental attacks)) was deprecated in the White Council because it can slide so easily into law-breaking, and it can be so difficult to figure out the intent, when Something Goes Wrong.  But then the Captain of the Wardens had her mind kicked out of her own body by a Kemmlerite, and the WC secretary turned out to have been diddling the minds of most/all of the Senior Council & the Wardens... and they suddenly realized their "just say no" policy was so very head-in-the-sand that it bordered on being suicidal.

I think Harry training Molly was pretty safe... or as much so as such things ever can be.

In particular:  I don't think it's going to be the major Lawbreaking that Jim was intending when he said he'd have Harry break all 7 Laws.
 

[Mira]

They were working on developing their mental defenses; the only way to do that is by defending against mental attacks.  The "win condition" was a specific mental image, nothing with mental controls or outside impulses.

Yes, but remember the main reason why the White Council has such crappy defenses against the likes of the Corpsetaker is
any training beyond the most rudimentary defense is forbidden.  So while technically Harry and Molly might not have been breaking one of the 7 Laws, the White Council, especially now might not see it that way.

[magnuskn]

But she won't be her anymore.  She won't be the vanilla mortal that all her fans love.  Death and time in Valhalla will change her, and perhaps not in the way you want.  That is why there are rules like, paraphrasing, "she won't return till all that knew and loved her have died."  Or something like that, but essentially that is a kindness to those who remain, love her memory as she was.  I am sure for the next couple of books at least her fans will be looking for clues whether or not it was her, returned.

You assume that her being a "vanilla mortal" is what "all her fans" loved about her. I didn't. I loved her personality, attitude, style of fighting, looks and what she meant to other characters. And, yes, that may be changed somewhat if she comes back as a Valkyrie. But Harry has changed a ton over the last 17 books and I still love him. And Karrin also went through big changes through that time (including the Ghost Story hiccup, which I didn't love that much). Let's just see what Jim comes up with and then deal with it when it happens. As we do for all the characters who had stuff happen to them during all those books.

[Mira]

You assume that her being a "vanilla mortal" is what "all her fans" loved about her. I didn't. I loved her personality, attitude, style of fighting, looks and what she meant to other characters. And, yes, that may be changed somewhat if she comes back as a Valkyrie. But Harry has changed a ton over the last 17 books and I still love him. And Karrin also went through big changes through that time (including the Ghost Story hiccup, which I didn't love that much). Let's just see what Jim comes up with and then deal with it when it happens. As we do for all the characters who had stuff happen to them during all those books.

But that's the point, her style etc, as a vanilla mortal, it wasn't just the Ghost Story hiccup, her arrogance, she thought she knew more than God.  She went through big changes after she was booted off the police force, this fan didn't care for them much.. That's just my opinion, I found myself rolling my eyes every time she was on page towards the end..

[magnuskn]

But that's the point, her style etc, as a vanilla mortal, it wasn't just the Ghost Story hiccup, her arrogance, she thought she knew more than God.  She went through big changes after she was booted off the police force, this fan didn't care for them much.. That's just my opinion, I found myself rolling my eyes every time she was on page towards the end..

While I can see the point you are making, I personally think that from Cold Days onwards she evolved into a more understanding character than she had been before Harry "died", with a more open mindset towards his flaws but also his strengths. That did backfire on her with the swords, however, since she had been "contaminated" in her faith by hanging out with Odin's people and therefor she did waver in her convictions. Or that's how I interpreted it, I could be quite off here.

I agree that she recovered a bit too much on the eve of Battle Grounds (Hobbs from Fast and Furious 7 comes to mind when she just had to take off her cast to get better), but as a last hurrah as her mortal badass self, it worked for me.

[LostInTime]

Let's face it. Murphy is going to return as a Valkyrie.

But, Murphy doesn't fit the physical model of a Valkyrie, you say. We don't know for certain how Valkyries are created in the Dresdenverse.

One-eye has Soulfire. It makes things real. It's how he rejoins the Einherjar's spirits to their bodies. (WOJ, Dresden Files podcast, December, 2020) Soulfire makes things real.

So, Odin makes a Valkyrie statuesque body from clay (plenty of examples from various myths), uses Soulfire to make it real, then uses Soulfire again to fuse Murphy's soul with the new body. Bob's your spirit in a skull, new Valkyrie.

This would also give Jim fertile ground to give a couple of appearances of the "new character" that we could go back after the reveal and say "Oh, Jim. You absolute bastard! You were torturing Murphy and Harry didn't know!"

Which is the most Jim-catnip thing, ever. And that's why he will do it.