Who is Listen?

[groinkick]

I was rereading where Ethniu had just found out that Michael, Maggie, and the others had not been killed.  What I found interesting (and Harry did not seem to notice)

The Titan's living eye widened
"Listen betrayed me"

Then Harry said "Sure, that's the takeaway here"

Harry seemed to think that Listen's mistake was considered a betrayal, but I suspect Dresden is wrong.  Listen had known the people in the home weren't real, and had actually betrayed Ethniu.

So if my theory is true, that Listen had betrayed Ethniu, can you think of why?  Does this giveaway the identity?  Could Listen be Elaine, the Starborn working for Ethniu?

[KurtinStGeorge]

I thought Listen was a man.  I guess I'd have to reread the sections of Ghost Story and Bombshells with Listen in them to be certain.

If your hypothesis of Listen's betrayal is correct; though I don't think we have enough information to confirm or deny it, it suggests to me that Listen is playing his own game and has been for some time.  Listen may well be Harry's enemy, but that doesn't mean he'd willingly commit an act that most likely would have Harry picking up every magical weapon he could possibly grab and hunting Listen down.  Listen has been shown to be smart enough to want to avoid that kind of trouble and most likely only takes on battles he believes he can win.

Jim more than hinted that Listen is smarter than King Korb and that he believes he can survive the King of the Fomor's wrath.  That backs up the idea that Listen is more than a mere minion and might even be a major player or has designs on becoming a major player.  But Listen is really Elaine?  I'm not feeling that.     

[TheCuriousFan]

I was rereading where Ethniu had just found out that Michael, Maggie, and the others had not been killed.  What I found interesting (and Harry did not seem to notice)

The Titan's living eye widened
"Listen betrayed me"

Then Harry said "Sure, that's the takeaway here"

Harry seemed to think that Listen's mistake was considered a betrayal, but I suspect Dresden is wrong.  Listen had known the people in the home weren't real, and had actually betrayed Ethniu.

So if my theory is true, that Listen had betrayed Ethniu, can you think of why?  Does this giveaway the identity?  Could Listen be Elaine, the Starborn working for Ethniu?

He could have wanted to go independent rather than having to worry about placating Ethniu or Corb's inevitable assassination attempts.

[Mira]

Jim more than hinted that Listen is smarter than King Korb and that he believes he can survive the King of the Fomor's wrath.  That backs up the idea that Listen is more than a mere minion and might even be a major player or has designs on becoming a major player.  But Listen is really Elaine?  I'm not feeling that.     

Yeah, unless Elaine underwent a sex change, Listen isn't her.  Listen has gills, supposedly he is yet another star born.   Problem, supposedly star borns aren't born every day, yet suddenly there are many of them.  Over use creates shrug of shoulders from readers..  Listen may have started out as a human, but the Fomor has evolved him and his Turtlenecks.  Before Ethniu said that he betrayed her, Listen's role appeared to be mainly that of "muscle" carrying out someone else's plans.  What I get by what Ethniu was saying was that she and Listen had planned something else together.  But then again it may not have been a betrayal at all, she and Listen got out flanked by Molly, who moved her family and little Maggie like Aragorn moved the Hobbits in The Lord of the Rings" so when Listen came for them, they weren't there.

[TheCuriousFan]

Yeah, unless Elaine underwent a sex change, Listen isn't her.  Listen has gills, supposedly he is yet another star born.   Problem, supposedly star borns aren't born every day, yet suddenly there are many of them.  Over use creates shrug of shoulders from readers..  Listen may have started out as a human, but the Fomor has evolved him and his Turtlenecks.  Before Ethniu said that he betrayed her, Listen's role appeared to be mainly that of "muscle" carrying out someone else's plans.  What I get by what Ethniu was saying was that she and Listen had planned something else together.  But then again it may not have been a betrayal at all, she and Listen got out flanked by Molly, who moved her family and little Maggie like Aragorn moved the Hobbits in The Lord of the Rings" so when Listen came for them, they weren't there.

The problem is that Listen is a detail oriented guy who'd know all about Mouse if he'd been scouting Chicago for years, angry foo dog is not a minor detail to overlook especially not for a character whose whole deal is not overlooking those details.

[Mira]

The problem is that Listen is a detail oriented guy who'd know all about Mouse if he'd been scouting Chicago for years, angry foo dog is not a minor detail to overlook especially not for a character whose whole deal is not overlooking those details.

He still might be getting more credit than he deserves, the point is Molly anticipated them going after her family, and he got fooled.  Whether he overlooked Mouse or not really isn't relevant.

[forumghost]

It's not complicated. Listen is just the annoyingly hypercompetent 'normal' character that was created to fill the niche now that Marcone picked up a coin.

Also, I agree that it'd be very weird if he failed to notice that the giant-ass superdog wasn't there when he attacked. If he knew enough to warn people about the Za Lord Guard, he should definitely know about Mouse.

Though that does beg the question of who he was actually working for if not Ethniu

[groinkick]

I hadn't realized Listen had been in any other books.  So obviously not Elaine.  In Ghost Story he worked with Corpsetaker, and he also works with the Fomor?  He's one of the turtleneck guys?  So is he entirely human, or one of the people they kidnap, and change?

[Mira]

I hadn't realized Listen had been in any other books.  So obviously not Elaine.  In Ghost Story he worked with Corpsetaker, and he also works with the Fomor?  He's one of the turtleneck guys?  So is he entirely human, or one of the people they kidnap, and change?

We got the reason for the turleneck, to hide the gills, so not exactly full human now.

[Panzerfront]

I'd say Listen is someone new, as opposed to someone like Elaine or another character we've seen.

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if they show him in some of the other novels that will crop up in coming years. But honestly making him turn out to be a character we've already seen would detract from the World of the Dresden Files. Make it smaller than it should be.

[Mira]

I'd say Listen is someone new, as opposed to someone like Elaine or another character we've seen.

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if they show him in some of the other novels that will crop up in coming years. But honestly making him turn out to be a character we've already seen would detract from the World of the Dresden Files. Make it smaller than it should be.

Making him suddenly significant could be, maybe I missed something but the impression I got of him was that he was the thug leaders of that little group of thugs.  Not someone that we suddenly find elevated to star born status...  That is the one I have a problem with, one or two born every so many centuries or years, special, they start popping up like mushrooms, not so significant at all.  For certain it diminishes Harry somewhat, and I see no reason to keep the facts about it from him or us.

[BrainFireBob]

Anyone born at the right time is starborn; it's a question of having talent.

Harry's the wizard-level talent. Possibly Elaine, too.

Drakul's from a different cycle.

Considering that the population is exploding, and the Fomor are generally going after low-level talents for their experiments- perhaps it takes magic to survive the process?- I'm personally OK with Listens being a Paranet-level starborn. Should be a couple knocking about.

Jim is definitely mining tropes for these books. Much like I am expecting a Firefly moment where some villain hits Harry with something and Harry "doesn't have that nerve cluster anymore," I am now vaguely expecting that there is a Highlander shenanigan going on with starborns.

Specifically, at this point finding out Sells, Kravos, and even Madrigal were all starborn wouldn't surprise me, although it would be a new story direction. All or none, though.

[Mira]

Anyone born at the right time is starborn; it's a question of having talent.

Harry's the wizard-level talent. Possibly Elaine, too.

Drakul's from a different cycle.

Considering that the population is exploding, and the Fomor are generally going after low-level talents for their experiments- perhaps it takes magic to survive the process?- I'm personally OK with Listens being a Paranet-level starborn. Should be a couple knocking about.

Jim is definitely mining tropes for these books. Much like I am expecting a Firefly moment where some villain hits Harry with something and Harry "doesn't have that nerve cluster anymore," I am now vaguely expecting that there is a Highlander shenanigan going on with starborns.

Specifically, at this point finding out Sells, Kravos, and even Madrigal were all starborn wouldn't surprise me, although it would be a new story direction. All or none, though.

If that happens, it is shrug of shoulders time.

[Yuillegan]

I was rereading where Ethniu had just found out that Michael, Maggie, and the others had not been killed.  What I found interesting (and Harry did not seem to notice)

The Titan's living eye widened
"Listen betrayed me"

Then Harry said "Sure, that's the takeaway here"

Harry seemed to think that Listen's mistake was considered a betrayal, but I suspect Dresden is wrong.  Listen had known the people in the home weren't real, and had actually betrayed Ethniu.

So if my theory is true, that Listen had betrayed Ethniu, can you think of why?  Does this giveaway the identity?  Could Listen be Elaine, the Starborn working for Ethniu?

Tbh I think you might be taking Harry's statement a bit literally.

It read to me more of his usual snark; it felt like sarcasm.

As in, "Sure Ethniu, you see a minion/lover/agent of yours failing to achieve his objective as a 'betrayal' when he was actually just outsmarted by my friend, and you are focussed on that small detail when the actual point is that you were so arrogant to not understand that you lost before you started, you chose to be dramatic and destructive and lost because of your lack of understanding and clarity"

Or something like that.

Remember, Harry makes his statement in the context of telling her that she has been tricked by faeries and he is condescending to her. He is trolling her. In the broader context as well I think it's also Harry realising these big, ancient, powerful beings are actually so limited by their strengths - Harry faces them all down and beats them by guile, skill, will and no small amount of luck. They should win by rights but they don't. Ethniu is dangerous, but in many more ways Harry is more dangerous.

Of course, if Harry had access to godlike power...that might be a really bad time. Let alone Marcone or Kincaid (are we sure he isn't a starborn...seems much like Listen, almost certainly a scion of Drakul).

You could be right though and Harry really was trying to let Ethniu know she was betrayed by Listen. In either case, Listen might well have been working for other bosses, or might have his own agenda or both.

[TheCuriousFan]

Anyone born at the right time is starborn; it's a question of having talent.

Harry's the wizard-level talent. Possibly Elaine, too.

Drakul's from a different cycle.

Considering that the population is exploding, and the Fomor are generally going after low-level talents for their experiments- perhaps it takes magic to survive the process?- I'm personally OK with Listens being a Paranet-level starborn. Should be a couple knocking about.

Jim is definitely mining tropes for these books. Much like I am expecting a Firefly moment where some villain hits Harry with something and Harry "doesn't have that nerve cluster anymore," I am now vaguely expecting that there is a Highlander shenanigan going on with starborns.

Specifically, at this point finding out Sells, Kravos, and even Madrigal were all starborn wouldn't surprise me, although it would be a new story direction. All or none, though.

Powerlevels will get real wonky when Drakul dies if that's the case.