Author Topic: Mab Lying to Demonreach  (Read 16263 times)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2021, 12:04:55 PM »
Mab isn't stupid, does she like someone who argues with her?  No, on a lot of levels she doesn't, but the stakes are too high now, she needs effective and not mediocre.
She actually liked Harry’s arranged suicide in Changes. She does not mind Harry arguing with her as long as he understand doing it in public will have grave consequences. She will actually put up with a lot as long as he is a winter knight worth having. What she wants is a knight who shared her purpose, I think that is done, is becoming more and more effective, that is happening, and shared her ruthless efficiency, we will see how far that gets but he moved in her direction.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2021, 05:37:50 PM »
She actually liked Harry’s arranged suicide in Changes. She does not mind Harry arguing with her as long as he understand doing it in public will have grave consequences. She will actually put up with a lot as long as he is a winter knight worth having. What she wants is a knight who shared her purpose, I think that is done, is becoming more and more effective, that is happening, and shared her ruthless efficiency, we will see how far that gets but he moved in her direction.

Did she like it?  She got overruled by Uriel and Harry went on his little soul walk about which lead to him learning some very important lessons.. Which ultimately led to the seven words.  Harry did share her purpose in Battle Ground, but that doesn't mean he will always share her purpose.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2021, 06:55:04 PM »
Is it?

Or is it because Mab actually liked what was happening. I think Harry had a totally wrong idea about how Mab wants to change Harry.
yes, she does. That doesn't make it less true or wrong or mean she wouldn't argue the point if she had one to argue. A equalling B has nothing to do with C see?

Offline Mira

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2021, 07:47:23 PM »
yes, she does. That doesn't make it less true or wrong or mean she wouldn't argue the point if she had one to argue. A equalling B has nothing to do with C see?

Yes, I think it was totally out of her control, and that is something Mab surely doesn't like.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #79 on: April 26, 2021, 01:20:43 PM »

This does not tell us he can not lie. It just says he has no free will. But the rules that bind him might even force him to lie under some circumstances.
Uriel doesn't have NO free will. Just not much. It's an important distinction. A while back Jim answered a question about how the Fallen must have had some free will in order to rebel in the first place. I think the same applies to all beings. However, due to Uriel's nature and high position, he cannot do all that much without breaking himself and the universe (or go a bit crazy perhaps).

Can change you does not mean success is guaranteed. If you can make Harry change himself you have changed him
I think that while this view is valid enough as an argument in our world, I think in the Dresden Universe it isn't so much the case. It's a philosophical position in our world, but not in Dresden's. Jim is being clear enough that Uriel can dispense objective truth. However, you are correct in that he doesn't have to. But by choosing to lie he would effectively destroy a universe (remember what the Angel of Death in Ghost Story said about unmaking a reality by interfering)...perhaps it might even destroy a part of himself. He would Fall. Not to mention cause probably another civil war in Heaven. So you can see why he might not do that either.

Harry might not realise Mab's strategies for changing who Harry is. In point of fact, he mostly seems to as pointed out by Michael and Eb etc. Doesn't mean he doesn't plan a bit for it or try and resist. Planning to resist is part of resisting in itself.

If you are prepared to die for it. With most people torture and bribes will get you quite far. Especially if they don’t know what is happening or don’t understand. Harry changed somewhat and nearly changed a lot more if he had not gotten his act together. He is Lucky Mab’s ambitions are not as destructive as Lasciel’s who could have changed him as well.

Or again in Uriel’s interpretation it was all Harry’s free will.
Everything changes you. So Lasciel, and Mab, have succeeded in a sense. Just by interacting with Harry. But changing the core of who he is...that's another thing entirely. And neither of them have achieved that...yet. It was Harry's free will but it wasn't totally free as a Fallen was interfering. Uriel reacts strongly to that sort of thing. But Uriel doesn't really interpret much. That's the job of the Judge, in a legal sense. Uriel mostly just does his thing. He doesn't make a lot of decisions on what constitutes universal law breaking, he just sort of knows via intellectus and reacts.

She actually liked Harry’s arranged suicide in Changes. She does not mind Harry arguing with her as long as he understand doing it in public will have grave consequences. She will actually put up with a lot as long as he is a winter knight worth having. What she wants is a knight who shared her purpose, I think that is done, is becoming more and more effective, that is happening, and shared her ruthless efficiency, we will see how far that gets but he moved in her direction.
Much of that is true. But it isn't the whole truth either. Harry shares part of her purpose but he can't share it all because he doesn't know it all.


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Offline Arjan

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2021, 02:25:15 PM »
It is also a matter of point of view and interpretation. Uriel values free will, that is subjective. You do not have to agree with him. There was a short discussion between Gard and Marcone about it when Marcone decided to save Harry in dead beat. Gard was more like don’t mess with fate. Which is probably not just her opinion. It is also something from Greek tragedy.

Uriel represents a certain point of view. A very important point of view because of where Harry lives and who he is. But not the only one.

All myths are true. 







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Offline Mira

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #81 on: April 26, 2021, 02:44:41 PM »
It is also a matter of point of view and interpretation. Uriel values free will, that is subjective. You do not have to agree with him. There was a short discussion between Gard and Marcone about it when Marcone decided to save Harry in dead beat. Gard was more like don’t mess with fate. Which is probably not just her opinion. It is also something from Greek tragedy.

Uriel represents a certain point of view. A very important point of view because of where Harry lives and who he is. But not the only one.

All myths are true.

Actually I think it was Gard that decided to save Harry in Dead Beat, because she already had him in her sites to take to Valhalla.  However I really don't know how much "power" she has to decide the matter, because if she could have prevented the death of Hendricks she would have.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #82 on: April 26, 2021, 02:52:35 PM »
Actually I think it was Gard that decided to save Harry in Dead Beat, because she already had him in her sites to take to Valhalla.  However I really don't know how much "power" she has to decide the matter, because if she could have prevented the death of Hendricks she would have.
Gard saved Harry because Marcone wanted it. Gard was against it:

Quote
"He didn't," said Gard. "I did." She looked over her shoulder at Marcone and frowned. "This is a mistake. It was his fate to die in that alley."
"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" Marcone asked.
"There will be consequences," she insisted.
Marcone shrugged. "When aren't there?"
Gard turned her face back to the front and shook her head. "Hubris. Mortals never understand."

« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 04:30:55 PM by Arjan »
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Offline Mira

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #83 on: April 26, 2021, 04:20:59 PM »
Quote
"He didn't," said Gard. "I did." She looked over her shoulder at Marcone and frowned. "This is a mistake. It was his fate to die in that alley."
"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" Marcone asked.
"There will be consequences," she insisted.
Marcone shrugged. "When aren't there?"
Gard turned her face back to the front and shook her head. "Hubris. Mortals never understand."

I don't remember Mab having a say in it, I remember the above quote however.  One wonders what the consequences will turn out to be, and for whom?  I mean did Gard mean for Harry, or Marcone?  Meaning perhaps the future showdown between Harry and now Denarain Marcone?

Offline Arjan

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #84 on: April 26, 2021, 04:32:38 PM »
I don't remember Mab having a say in it, I remember the above quote however.  One wonders what the consequences will turn out to be, and for whom?  I mean did Gard mean for Harry, or Marcone?  Meaning perhaps the future showdown between Harry and now Denarain Marcone?
Spelling mistake. Gard.

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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Mab Lying to Demonreach
« Reply #85 on: April 26, 2021, 04:58:55 PM »
That passage sets up Titania's attack on Marcone in Small Favor.  One of the alternate names of the Queens are the Fates, Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos. Mother Winter uses Atropos's shears to  cut the unravling cloth in Summer Knight and Harry explicitly summons her with her name in Cold Days.