Mab Lying to Demonreach

[Dina]

Uriel can't mess with mortals' free will like that. As I said, he would be no better than Lasciel if he did.

What he said must have been True.

Why? I did not see that he cannot lie.

[Arjan]

Uriel can't mess with mortals' free will like that. As I said, he would be no better than Lasciel if he did.

What he said must have been True.

He could. With seven words to neutralize Lasciel’s meddling. But even Uriel can not undo Lasciel’s meddling so he can only interfere with Harry’s free will in a different direction.

[Mira]

He could. With seven words to neutralize Lasciel’s meddling. But even Uriel can not undo Lasciel’s meddling so he can only interfere with Harry’s free will in a different direction.

The only reason why Uriel was able to go as far as he did with the seven words is because of Lasciel's meddling.  If Lasciel hadn't done that there would have been no seven words.  As Uriel told Harry when he appeared to him in Changes, there are roads and consequences, he did give him some food for thought about acting out of love, but the choices belonged solely to Harry.

[Paviel]

"When a lie is believed, it compromises the freedom of your will." (Uriel, Ghost Story chapter 50)

Whose words would compromise the freedom of Harry's will if he believed them: Mab's, or Uriel's?

[Mira]

"When a lie is believed, it compromises the freedom of your will." (Uriel, Ghost Story chapter 50)

Whose words would compromise the freedom of Harry's will if he believed them: Mab's, or Uriel's?

I think the lie that compromised Harry's will was the lie that Lasciel told him to begin with.  Then it gets gray, because Harry believed Lasciel, this led to him believing that if he became Mab's Knight he'd be changed and be just as bad as Slate or even worse because he is a wizard.  That is the lie, Mab is telling the truth when she says she can make Harry do her bidding..  In a sense she did lie by omission because she let Harry to continue to believe that it would change him, using Lasciel's lie to her advantage.  The seven words got through to Harry that no matter what Mab tried to make him do, he will remain who he is.

[bigdangmoose]

Isn't it said by Uriel that he is allowed 7 words to COUNTERBALANCE the words of the shadow. To me, that sounds like he can use any words he needs to use to fix the damage the lie did to the free will of the person.

[Arjan]

"When a lie is believed, it compromises the freedom of your will." (Uriel, Ghost Story chapter 50)

Whose words would compromise the freedom of Harry's will if he believed them: Mab's, or Uriel's?

Both. But Mab is only bound to what she thinks is true, not to what Harry makes of her words. Uriel is bound differently but we do not have the details. Probably something to do with promoting free will

Harry’s free will was compromised but any action to balance however well meaner was compromising Harry’s free will as well which is proved by the fact that Uriel would not be allowed to do it under normal circumstances.

Compare with a doctor and a wound. The needle still goes through your flesh even if it is beneficial. Not something you do under normal circumstances

[Mira]

Isn't it said by Uriel that he is allowed 7 words to COUNTERBALANCE the words of the shadow. To me, that sounds like he can use any words he needs to use to fix the damage the lie did to the free will of the person.

Yes, it is very possible that Uriel's words had nothing to do with what Mab said or didn't say.  They counterbalanced what Lasciel said, which restored Harry's free will.  He then realized he need not be a slave to Mab's will. 

[Dina]

I agree.

[morriswalters]

A lie is balanced by truth.  What was taken from Harry was hope. What Uriel offers to Harry is that hope, the chance that he can remain who he is. Mother Summer will reinforce this when she takes Harry to the Outer Gates.

“I’m saying many things,” Mother Summer said. “Do you have a chance to remain yourself despite the tendency of the mantle to mold your thoughts and desires? All Knights, Winter and Summer, have that chance. Most fail.” “But it’s possible,” I said. She looked up at me and her eyes were deeper than time. “Anything is possible.” “Ah,” I said, understanding. “We’re not really talking about me.” “We are,” she said serenely, turning her eyes away. “And we are not.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 335). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[Arjan]

A lie is balanced by truth.  What was taken from Harry was hope. What Uriel offers to Harry is that hope, the chance that he can remain who he is. Mother Summer will reinforce this when she takes Harry to the Outer Gates.

Can not change you is quite different from you have a chance. If you go for literal truth Mother Summer is more reliable.

[morriswalters]

If you have free will you can fall even if Mab can't force the issue.  You can change yourself.

[Arjan]

If you have free will you can fall even if Mab can't force the issue.  You can change yourself.

Theoretically. But Uriel’s interpretation is not completely realistic. If you have absolute power over someone and can entice, blackmail, indoctrinate, influence someone’s emotions and senses etc. You can maintain that it is still you who is changing yourself but I think that interpretation lacks compassion.

And from Mab’s point of view she does does things and people change. That proves that she can change people. There is something like cause and effect.

[dspringer1]

Can mab lie to non-mortals? After all, demonreach is not a mortal. 

[Arjan]

Can mab lie to non-mortals? After all, demonreach is not a mortal.

They can not lie to each other. It is not about the one they are talking to.