Mab Lying to Demonreach

[Paviel]

In chapter 51 of "Ghost Story," when Mab told Demonreach that he couldn't gainsay her claim on Harry, and that Harry was hers to shape as she pleased, Uriel could and did call those statements "lies."

How could Mab, a faerie, lie?

Or if she was telling the truth (or even just what she believed to be true), how could Uriel call what she said lies?

[Avernite]

In chapter 51 of "Ghost Story," when Mab told Demonreach that he couldn't gainsay her claim on Harry, and that Harry was hers to shape as she pleased, Uriel could and did call those statements "lies."

How could Mab, a faerie, lie?

Or if she was telling the truth (or even just what she believed to be true), how could Uriel call what she said lies?

Uriel's not banned from lying, is he?

Now he is banned from certain lies, in the sense that they allow the Fallen to break the rules in return, but I don't think he actually has to tell the exact truth.

[groinkick]

In chapter 51 of "Ghost Story," when Mab told Demonreach that he couldn't gainsay her claim on Harry, and that Harry was hers to shape as she pleased, Uriel could and did call those statements "lies."

How could Mab, a faerie, lie?

Or if she was telling the truth (or even just what she believed to be true), how could Uriel call what she said lies?

Mab cannot lie, however she can be mistaken.

[TheCuriousFan]

In chapter 51 of "Ghost Story," when Mab told Demonreach that he couldn't gainsay her claim on Harry, and that Harry was hers to shape as she pleased, Uriel could and did call those statements "lies."

How could Mab, a faerie, lie?

Or if she was telling the truth (or even just what she believed to be true), how could Uriel call what she said lies?

Did Mab lie? (At the end of Ghost Story)
Mab did not lie, Mab was wrong. There's a subtle difference to that, at the end of Ghost Story. As far as Mab is concerned, she's telling the truth, because she's telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level. So we'll see how that plays out a little bit more in the next book

From a 2011 DC signing.

[Paviel]

From a 2011 DC signing.

That doesn't explain why Uriel said she WAS lying, though.

[TheCuriousFan]

That doesn't explain why Uriel said she WAS lying, though.

7 words is a pretty harsh word limit, presumably just saying wrong instead wouldn't have been enough to snap Harry out of it.

[groinkick]

7 words is a pretty harsh word limit, presumably just saying wrong instead wouldn't have been enough to snap Harry out of it.

It may also be a greater lie.  Just speculating obviously but if I told a lie to you, and you said it to someone else, you may be lying without even knowing it.  So I could see how Mab in a way could be lying, but not on purpose.

[Mira]

That doesn't explain why Uriel said she WAS lying, though.

 He didn't say she was lying, but what she said wasn't true.. As far as her understanding goes, she was telling the truth, but in her experience she never had had a wizard for a Knight, let alone one that has an archangel at his back.

[Paviel]

He didn't say she was lying.

Yes he did. He called her statements, and I quote, "Lies."

It seems to me like he could have gotten the point across just as easily by saying, for example, "Mab cannot change who you are, Dresden," so it has to be important in some way that he specifically called Mab a liar.

Maybe it's just that archangels have different criteria than mortals or fae or WOJ for what is or isn't a lie. That's the only explanation I can think of.

[Mira]

Yes he did. He called her statements, and I quote, "Lies."

It seems to me like he could have gotten the point across just as easily by saying, for example, "Mab cannot change who you are, Dresden," so it has to be important in some way that he specifically called Mab a liar.

Maybe it's just that archangels have different criteria than mortals or fae or WOJ for what is or isn't a lie. That's the only explanation I can think of.

I've always had the opinion that the Fae do in fact lie, but not from their point of view.  So to them it is absolute truth, that is why one should never bargain with them.  You think you are agreeing to something, which you are, however while Mab might say,"yes" to whatever it is.. She didn't say it was still, "yes" when it is raining for example. If you don't ask, or go into detail, it is on you when you find out it is "no," when it rains.  So she isn't lying exactly, but neither is she telling the truth.  So from her point of view she was telling the truth..  However she was also lying because she was omitting the fine print.  The seven words holds her to the fine print in the bargain.

[Arjan]

Yes he did. He called her statements, and I quote, "Lies."

That does not mean she was lying. Mab believed what she was saying and she had good reasons to do so.

It is also that Uriel and Mab have a different worldview. In Uriel’s view you are the only one who can change yourself. The only one who can change your soul, nobody else can do so.

Mab just applies pressure and temptation to a person and see he changes. According to Uriel he did so himself.

[morriswalters]

Jim is a English major.

And a voice—a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear, “Lies. Mab cannot change who you are.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 575). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

lie2
/lī/
noun
plural noun: lies

(click to show/hide)

    an intentionally false statement.
    "the whole thing is a pack of lies"
    h
    Similar:
    untruth

falsehood
fib
fabrication
deception
made-up story
trumped-up story
fake news
invention
piece of fiction
fiction
falsification
falsity
fairy story/tale
cock and bull story
barefaced lie
(little) white lie
half-truth
exaggeration
prevarication
departure from the truth
alternative fact
yarn
story
red herring
fable
myth
flight of fancy
figment of the imagination
pretense
pretext
sham
misinformation
disinformation
perjury
dissimulation
mendacity
gossip
propaganda
tall story
tall tale
whopper
porky
pork pie
porky pie
terminological inexactitude
vulgar slang
bullshit
bulldust
h
Opposite:
truth
fact

   used with reference to a situation involving deception or  founded on a mistaken impression.
    "all their married life she had been living a lie"

[Paviel]

"Intentionally false statement" seems pretty clear to me.

[Arjan]

"Intentionally false statement" seems pretty clear to me.

Which Mab did not do.

[Paviel]

So why did Uriel say that she had? He was clearly referring to two or more statements, not situations. (There's only one situation that's really at stake.)

"(The statements that were just spoken are) lies. Mab cannot change who you are" makes a lot more sense to me than "(The situations here are) lies. Mab cannot change who you are."