The Barabbas curse

[BrainFireBob]

The way Jim had Harry deal with it was dumb and the way after Butter snapped Harry out of the red mist and it was never really brought up again was also irritating. Then we get the Gard at the funeral give Murphy fans more of a slap in the face with the "Not until all memory of her is faded" BS kinda boils down to Murphy got the power up she needed but no she doesn't get to use it instead she gets put on a shelf.

We also get Mab forcing Harry and Lara together which didn't help how H and K fans felt I didn't like that entire scene with Harry regardless of Lara and Molly stopping him from saying something that would get him killed seamed out of character for Harry to with way that would tread on anybody's sore spot that a person you love is dead and he just swallow's all the back sass and back talk that normal comes from someone telling him what to do. I can see why and sort of agree with one my friends that it felt like a giant FU from Butcher toward Murph fans and I think Jim is still not really getting the full backlash from doing what he did given none of cons are open to where I feel he would get the most backlash from Murph fans given how much the Dresden Reddit and FB groups are anti-Murphy and have been for awhile so his view might be lacking the full picture but I guess time well tell

I don't want to tread on toes, here, but are you stating it is your belief that Jim must suffer for what he did to Murphy, in a story he created and that he controls, in a story that is not about her but about a different character (Harry Dresden)?

[Mira]

I don't want to tread on toes, here, but are you stating it is your belief that Jim must suffer for what he did to Murphy, in a story he created and that he controls, in a story that is not about her but about a different character (Harry Dresden)?

He could very well suffer as far as some fans go.  There are those that were so pissed that they may never pick up another book that he writes.  Been there and done that a time or two myself.  I do think Jim did prepare us for the inevitable, it has been coming on since she left the police force.  It has only gotten worse since Changes when he decided not to make her a Holy Knight.  I got so I'd groan every time Murphy would give Harry one of her sermons on how he should behave.  The final straw was her hypocritical attitude about the Swords and how they should be used.  Yes, in the end it turned out alright because the Sword was transformed and a new Knight got it, but still.  Then in Peace Talks her injuries sort of were factors, but as I said she went back and forth from barely able to limp along to "Wonder Woman."  Worse yet, was she never once second guessed or admitted that she had made some mistakes, big ones in the past books.

[BrainFireBob]

She was a holy knight- for a few hours. Most knights, per the books and WoJ both, only are chosen a short time. Current situation is freaky unusual.

Even on Sesame Street, some characters suffer. Murphy doesn't even exist.  I've been online for a longtime, feeling upset and reacting I get, feeling that an author "deserves" punishment, though- that's surprising.

[Phygers]

I don't want to tread on toes, here, but are you stating it is your belief that Jim must suffer for what he did to Murphy, in a story he created and that he controls, in a story that is not about her but about a different character (Harry Dresden)?

To answer the OP no I doubt it was the curse was used , but then again I and other readers don't know what Butcher has planned or if there is more behind the way Murph went out anything is possible at this point.

I get it that it's his story and he writes for himself and the people that want to read that adventure. All the other deaths of people that others where fans of (Susan, Shiro, Morgan) or where close to Harry where written and blended more into the book and story where this one sticks out like a sore thumb almost like it was written as a after thought and then jammed in late in writing process

 It's the kinda ham-fisted way he went about killing Murphy on top of giving H and K shippers what they had waited for 16 books for only to then slap them in the face with BG and then in the interview where talking about why he did it and how he wanted his readers and Murph supporters to suffer the most while reading that on top then telling the people that are still around and pissed about it to keep reading is the thing that makes me want to ask Jim "Really you think that telling them to keep reading after you angered them and kinda slapped them in face is going get them to come back".  I feel is a dumb thought on his part

And no I wish nothing bad or harm on Jim or anybody. Just that I have had friend's and family that have walked over this that would like to give Butcher a piece of their mind and I'm on the fence on fence about how I feel over it

[Mira]

It's the kinda ham-fisted way he went about killing Murphy on top of giving H and K shippers what they had waited for 16 books for only to then slap them in the face with BG and then in the interview where talking about why he did it and how he wanted his readers and Murph supporters to suffer the most while reading that on top then telling the people that are still around and pissed about it to keep reading is the thing that makes me want to ask Jim "Really you think that telling them to keep reading after you angered them and kinda slapped them in face is going get them to come back".  I feel is a dumb thought on his part

She isn't the first important character he has killed off.   I think the problem lies more with the direction the series is taken.  Murphy the cop fit perfectly with Harry the wizard private investigator, even with some shipping or their struggle against it.  Murphy, as she has been since Harry became Winter Knight, not so much.  I think Jim has been struggling to find a fit for her and it couldn't be done.  She was perfect as originally written and she didn't evolve well, so he killed her off.  Alternatively he could have put her in the F.B.I. or restored her place on the police force, and have her recede into the background where she might show up on rare occasions.  However if he did feel he had to kill her off, at least have her go out with more dignity than she did.

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Re: The Barabbas curse
« Reply #32 on: Today at 03:54:57 PM »

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She was a holy knight- for a few hours. Most knights, per the books and WoJ both, only are chosen a short time. Current situation is freaky unusual.

Actually not, when we first meet the Knights, all three do it on a regular basis.  Sanya is still a Knight, Shiro died, Michael retired, so the job for the last two Swords has been temporary until Butters got the job, which leaves only one for temp jobs.  Murphy was offered the Sword on a permanent basis, she refused, she then took it upon herself to become custodian of the Swords, which she wasn't assigned and wasn't suited for.

[BrainFireBob]

She isn't the first important character he has killed off.   I think the problem lies more with the direction the series is taken.  Murphy the cop fit perfectly with Harry the wizard private investigator, even with some shipping or their struggle against it.  Murphy, as she has been since Harry became Winter Knight, not so much.  I think Jim has been struggling to find a fit for her and it couldn't be done.  She was perfect as originally written and she didn't evolve well, so he killed her off.  Alternatively he could have put her in the F.B.I. or restored her place on the police force, and have her recede into the background where she might show up on rare occasions.  However if he did feel he had to kill her off, at least have her go out with more dignity than she did.

Actually not, when we first meet the Knights, all three do it on a regular basis.  Sanya is still a Knight, Shiro died, Michael retired, so the job for the last two Swords has been temporary until Butters got the job, which leaves only one for temp jobs.  Murphy was offered the Sword on a permanent basis, she refused, she then took it upon herself to become custodian of the Swords, which she wasn't assigned and wasn't suited for.

In series it's Nicodemus, I think, who tells us most Knights don't serve very long.

There is also a WoJ to that effect. I'll see if I can find it this afternoon. No chance on the Nic quote- I have a 2 year old daddy's girl at home. My time digging references from books is a bit on hiatus for another couple of years.

[Mira]

In series it's Nicodemus, I think, who tells us most Knights don't serve very long.

There is also a WoJ to that effect. I'll see if I can find it this afternoon. No chance on the Nic quote- I have a 2 year old daddy's girl at home. My time digging references from books is a bit on hiatus for another couple of years.

No, actually it was Michael at the end of Skin Game I believe that tells Harry that most Holy Knights serve for a few hours or a day or two depending on the need.  As in Murphy and Susan were both Holy Knights in Changes, Susan wasn't so overt because the Sword didn't light up or an angel talk through her, but she did wield the Sword of Love until she attacked Martin and turned into a full vampire.  However when Harry meets the three Knights in Death Mask, all three had been doing it for some time.  Sanya has continued for some time and it looks like Butters will as well.  That leaves the Sword of Love that it looks like for now at least Harry will hand out as needed.  However at the end of Changes I seem to remember him telling Murphy that if she wanted to keep the job as Knight, she could, but she refused.

[TheCuriousFan]

She isn't the first important character he has killed off.   I think the problem lies more with the direction the series is taken.  Murphy the cop fit perfectly with Harry the wizard private investigator, even with some shipping or their struggle against it.  Murphy, as she has been since Harry became Winter Knight, not so much.  I think Jim has been struggling to find a fit for her and it couldn't be done.  She was perfect as originally written and she didn't evolve well, so he killed her off.  Alternatively he could have put her in the F.B.I. or restored her place on the police force, and have her recede into the background where she might show up on rare occasions.  However if he did feel he had to kill her off, at least have her go out with more dignity than she did.

She's by far the most important death so far.

[groinkick]

She's by far the most important death so far.

I dunno...  Susan's sacrifice, and death was used to kill the entire Red Court, and set in motion the rise of the Fomor.  On a personal level, Harry was forced to kill the woman he loved, and mother of his child, leaving him as a single parent. Of all the deaths in the book, I'd say hers was the most significant when it comes to how it effected the rest of the Dresdenverse, and Harry.

I'm talking in regards to the Dresdenverse, and not when it comes to the books, and fans.

[Mira]

I dunno...  Susan's sacrifice, and death was used to kill the entire Red Court, and set in motion the rise of the Fomor.  On a personal level, Harry was forced to kill the woman he loved, and mother of his child, leaving him as a single parent. Of all the deaths in the book, I'd say hers was the most significant when it comes to how it effected the rest of the Dresdenverse, and Harry.

I'm talking in regards to the Dresdenverse, and not when it comes to the books, and fans.

Yes, he will mourn Murphy for sure, and her life wasn't insignificant.. However a reminder of Susan hugs him every day, looks at him with Susan's brown eyes and tells him, "Daddy, I love you.." 

Actually the Barabbas curse fits Susan more than anyone, she took the hit meant for Harry and her daughter, and instead of of her daughter and all her kin dying, the curse wiped out the whole Red Court.

[TheCuriousFan]

I dunno...  Susan's sacrifice, and death was used to kill the entire Red Court, and set in motion the rise of the Fomor.  On a personal level, Harry was forced to kill the woman he loved, and mother of his child, leaving him as a single parent. Of all the deaths in the book, I'd say hers was the most significant when it comes to how it effected the rest of the Dresdenverse, and Harry.

I'm talking in regards to the Dresdenverse, and not when it comes to the books, and fans.

Yes, he will mourn Murphy for sure, and her life wasn't insignificant.. However a reminder of Susan hugs him every day, looks at him with Susan's brown eyes and tells him, "Daddy, I love you.." 

Actually the Barabbas curse fits Susan more than anyone, she took the hit meant for Harry and her daughter, and instead of of her daughter and all her kin dying, the curse wiped out the whole Red Court.

In terms of character importance it's no contest and she almost certainly wins in terms of importance to Harry too. How often has he thought about Susan since she died for example?

[Mira]

In terms of character importance it's no contest and she almost certainly wins in terms of importance to Harry too. How often has he thought about Susan since she died for example?

Every time he looks into his little girl's eyes..  He is reminded every time he is told that the Fomor has become big bad because he wiped out the Red Court...  A whole fricking book called, "Changes" was written because it was the climax of a relationship between Harry and a female reporter that started in "Storm Front," which led to unprotected sex, which led to the birth of a child, which led ultimately to the end of the Red Court and Harry becoming Winter Knight, which has changed the trajectory of the whole series..  We've yet to see what effect Murphy's death will have, or what "real" consequence she has had on the series or him.  I guess one can point out that Murphy's actions led to the transformation of a Holy Sword and a new Knight back in Skin Game, that is significant, but more significant compared to what happened as a result of Harry dating and falling in love with Susan?  Remains to be seen, and in the end I wasn't a huge Susan fan, so it isn't a matter of liking one over the other.

[morriswalters]

She was a holy knight- for a few hours. Most knights, per the books and WoJ both, only are chosen a short time. Current situation is freaky unusual.

Even on Sesame Street, some characters suffer. Murphy doesn't even exist.  I've been online for a longtime, feeling upset and reacting I get, feeling that an author "deserves" punishment, though- that's surprising.

When you talk about torturing your readers don't be surprised if they talk in terms of punishment, although I doubt angry mobs are going to Colorado with torches and pitchforks.

One of the biggest complaints about the series is how Jim treats women.  Murphy was the only female character to make it this far.  Every female has been neutered or killed over the course of the series.  Susan was sacrificed for a child that serves no point in the series.  Murphy was killed to prop up Butters. Who also serves no purpose. There are no female characters that aren't f***ed up.  We have the inhumans, a vampire sex pot, a failed wizard, an nemfected drone and a body swapped Warden old lady in a young women's body.

[groinkick]

When you talk about torturing your readers don't be surprised if they talk in terms of punishment, although I doubt angry mobs are going to Colorado with torches and pitchforks.

One of the biggest complaints about the series is how Jim treats women.

You mean that they are either more powerful, or smarter than the lead male character?  Susan and Murphy who weren't more intelligent, or powerful matched his courage. 

Murphy was the only female character to make it this far. 

Molly, Charity, Lara, Elaine, Mab, Leah, Titania, and now Maggie and Bonea.  Does them not being human make them not count as female in a fantasy story?  I probably forgot someone too.  This is a first person story.  Everything is from Dresden's point of view, and revolve around him.  If someone has a problem with other characters not being as important, they should read books that aren't first person stories.

Susan was sacrificed for a child that serves no point in the series. 

Everything is about Dresden, and how things affect him in the stories.  Having a child is one of the biggest things a person can experience, and much of what has happened is because of his child.  He never would have become Winter Knight if not for her, and what that choice has led to.  Susan's sacrifice also ended the Red Court war, the White Council should have a marble statue of her erected at their headquarters.

Murphy was killed to prop up Butters.

yes because Harry wasn't effected by her death, and him getting with Lara isn't a direct result, or her returning in the future as a Valkyrie will serve no purpose.

Who also serves no purpose.

I'm sure fans of Butters would disagree, and their opinion is just as valuable as yours.

There are no female characters that aren't f***ed up.  We have the inhumans, a vampire sex pot, a failed wizard, an nemfected drone and a body swapped Warden old lady in a young women's body.

Yeah because Dresden isn't f***ed up right?  What human females would matter for Dresden exactly at this point?  They would be nothing but defenseless targets.  Harry is now a monster living amongst monsters.  Molly is in the same boat as Dresden.  Elaine is going to be big later on.  Lara is always one step ahead of Dresden. 

If someone isn't a fan of the story, they should read something else.

[morriswalters]

If someone isn't a fan of the story, they should read something else.

I'm a fan or I wouldn't be here. And I'm vested in the characters or I wouldn't care.  And I've read thousands of other books.  I've also quit reading when it became intolerable.  I'm not quite there yet on Dresden.

As to the rest, these are story criticisms. Of course others disagree with me. But IMO not every women that Harry is involved with need to come to a bad end. Just once it would be nice to see a women kick him to the curb without having a blade drawn across her throat.